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1saved

I look at the 5 points as something like the doctrine of the Trinity. The Church always taught it (at least some of the Church anyway), but it wasn't necessary to compile the doctrine in written form until heretical teaching entered the Church.

Tom

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but I must still wait for Joe to reply to my private message before I say anymore in fairness to him.
What bearing does Joe's reply to a Private Message you sent to him have to do with your answering the questions several have posed to you concerning your "secret revelatory insights" into the true interpretation of Eph 1? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratch1.gif" alt="" /> You might as well answer the question(s) as Joe in all likelihood is not going to reply to you for he is gone for an extended period of time.

Since we are all without the truth and you alone have had the "spirit" reveal this to you and the Lord Christ commands you to spread that truth to all who will hear it, which we all here are waiting for with much anticipation, then get on with it, if you don't mind and enlighten us with proper exegesis and hermeneutics as prescribed by the ICBI. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

In His Grace,


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simul iustus et peccator

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Have you ever considered Who is really in control? Have you trusted Him in faith? Scripture says, "Judge not, that you be not judged. For by what measure you judge, you will be judged, and the measure you use, it will be measured back to you." Matthew 7:1,2 NKJV and "Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets." Matthew 7:12 NKJV

The typical cry of every heretic. Yet scripture denies yourt usage, and your actions here prove this is exactly what you are doing concerning John Calvin.


God bless,

william

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Greetings William,

I fail to see your logic. Are you saying I'm unfairly judging John Calvin. You are the judge in this discussion forum. I am the advocate. I'm pleading the case for the truth. Truth is the defendant. Truth has 'said', there is sufficient reason (probable cause) to bring discussion as to whether or not the alleged "Calvin sanctioning the burning of Servetus" is true.

Dr. John MacArthur is a witness and Dr. Horton is a witness and the postings from the other sources are all witnesses in the case.

You or anyone else for that matter, can be John Calvin's defense attorney. I suggest someone ask Dr. Horton to defend Calvin. I've already suggested Dr. Horton or his representative join this discussion forum. I have absolutely nothing to hide from the clear light of the truth. If I thought Calvin to be completely innocent, I would defend him, myself!

If you read carefully, I don't make unsubstantiated remarks. I don't use false logic and I don't slander anyone's reputation. I'm trying to be very, very careful to accurately present the facts of this case in as unbiased a manner as humanly possible.

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Tom,

I never said I liked the writing of Dave Hunt. All I did was read something of Hunt's someone else posted and take an excerpt of it to post. I didn't even read 1/3 of Hunt's article.

I have read only one book by Dave Hunt entitled 'A Woman Rides the Beast'. In this book, Hunt claims the woman who rides the beast in Revelation is the Roman Catholic Church.

Whether or not I agree with that book of Hunt's, is not germane to the issue being discussed here, since it has to do with eschatology.

Thanks for the warning, although I'm not afraid I'll be deceived by any false teaching, since I trust the in-dwelling Holy Spirit to guide me and teach me truth from fallacy.

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I'm pleading the case for the truth.
That alone is a falsehood! You aren't "pleading for the truth", but rather you are trying to establish some bizarre notion that if John Calvin agreed (sanctioned) with the civil authorities who condemned Michael Servetus to death for the crime of gross heresy and blasphemy, he is THEREFORE devoid of the Holy Spirit and all that he taught after that point in time is fallacious and should be rejected. The premise itself is not only indefensible but it is obnoxious on its face.

You have made a bold statement that you NEVER consult or use extra-biblical sources when discussing theology. Yet, on myriad occasions you have resorted to Funk & Wagnall's Encyclopedia, Webster's Dictionary, fallible men, e.g., John Bunyan, John MacArthur, James Boice, et al, and the audacious claim to have been given private tutoring from the Holy Spirit. The church is no stranger to Gnosticism. For even the Apostle John, when writing his Gospel was combating the devilish teachings of the Gnostics of his own day. There is nothing new under the sun, eh?

What is certain, is that you are a very confused man.

1 John 4:1 "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."


May the LORD God be gracious unto you and show you mercy.


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Pilgrim,

The Bible is written using words. We need to have some standard for what each word means. If not Funk & Wagnalls Standard College Dictionary, submit some reference source you recommend.

By the way, you misquoted me, I didn't use Webster's Dictionary as a source.

The other dictionary I have is 'The American Heritage Dictionary' copyright 1982, 1985. If you like we can use it for purposes of defining the meaning of words.

I quoted an article on Bunyan's life from the World Book Encyclopedia as an example of a Scriptural doctrine clearly written in James 1:2-4.

Since you've questioned whether or not I have received this understanding from the Holy Spirit, I suggest you provide some testimony witnessing to some other source. Find some one who ever came to this same conclusion. Did I get this from Dr. MacArthur, or Dr. Boice, or Dr. Feinberg, or John Bunyan? If it came from Bunyan then produce the document John Bunyan wrote.

Did I plagiarize it from doctrine of either of the Catholic Churches, or the Methodists or the Dispensationalists?

If the doctrine is not correct, then you provide your own exegesis of the passage and explain what it means. If your exegesis contradicts other Scripture it must be false. In the same way, if my exegesis contradicts other Scripture, then my exegesis is false. The proof is in Scripture and only in Scripture.

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George:

Here’s why your conclusion is (still) absurd:

Quote
You state:
I will not say I understand exactly and completely what Jesus is saying here. What Jesus means by 'fruit' and 'tree' is debatable.

You start by stating that you evidently are not sure what “bad fruit” really is.

Then in your conclusion, your logic then jumps to the fact that.....some sort of “Sin” is “bad fruit”. Especially Calvin’s sin. You called it “Sanctioning the burning of Servetus”. What would this “sin” be, asssuming the worst of Calvin? Complicity in murder? A sin of omission for not speaking out against “capital punishment”, which was the law of the land? Premeditated murder? Whatever it is it is some sort of “Sin”.

Then your logic..jumps again and presumes....1st he is guilty of “Sin” and 2nd he is un-repentant of sin before he “received his doctrine from the Holy Spirit” and/or after. (your words) Therefore..he is a bad tree. This logic also applies to Paul...he also is guilty of “Sin”....especially prior to his conversion...and didn’t Paul state “O wretched man that I am!”..... after his conversion......but your logic says “our Lord warns you to beware of him.”...because he is/has “bad fruit”....”SIN”.

Since your definition of “bad fruit” by default is some sort of “sin”..shouldn’t we also beware of “George Fitt”? I would wonder if there may be some un-repented sin..concerning the 9th commandment and John Calvin. In your presumption that Calvin was unrepentant...have you ever read any of the published prayers of John Calvin? If not here’s a sample for your perusal:

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Grant, Almighty God, that though we daily depart from thee by our sins, we may not yet be wholly removed from the foundation on which our salvation depends; but do thou so sustain us, or even raise us up when fallen, that we may ever continue in our degree, and also return to thee in true repentance, and whatever may happen to us, may we learn ever to look to thee, that we may never despair of thy goodness, which thou hast promised to be firm and perpetual, and that especially while relying on thy only-begotten Son our Mediator, we may be able to call on thee as our Father, until we shall at length come to that eternal inheritance, which has been obtained for us by the blood of thine only Son. — Amen.

From what I’ve read of Calvin, I would imagine that not a day went by without a cleansing of the soul in humble repentance before his God. We would all do well to imitate it.


Dave

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Dave,

To answer your rebuttal to me, I can definitely say that the evidence of praying doesn't mean anything. There any many Roman Catholic monasteries and convents where prayer is done continually.

As a matter of fact, prayer should be done privately, in secret. Matthew 6:6 So, if Calvin's prayers were open to public knowledge, this only indicates he didn't follow Scripture.

As far as I'm concerned, this case is closed. Pilgrim has admitted John Calvin agreed to the death of Servetus, when Pilgrim wrote, "...because he agreed that Servetus got a fair trial and received a just punishment for his sin, even though he tried to change the method of his execution to something other than burning at the stake."

The only difference between the subject of the discussion and Pilgrim's statement is the difference in meaning between 'sanctioned' and 'agreed'.

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George wrote:
if Calvin's prayers were open to public knowledge, this only indicates he didn't follow Scripture.

Let me give just one more published prayer. It may have special significance to you. It does for me.

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Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates. For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth. Paul, II Cor 7,8

Dave

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Dave,

Thank you providng the Biblical text confirming my position, which is - Christians are to seek the truth.

I think you are claiming, by implication, that what I've done is evil. But by seeking the truth and finding the truth, I have done what is good.

If you can't recognize truth, God is not in you. For the in-dwelling Holy Spirit confirms to you what is the truth.

All true Christians (all my brothers and sisters) understand this, it's a fundamental way to know whether someone else is a believer. All true Christians rely upon the Holy Spirit to guide them. The Bible says we are led by the Spirit. Led how? Led by discernment. Fundamental to discernment is recognizing truth from error.

All those reading the discussion as to whether or not Calvin agreed to the death of Servetus can be divided into two categories. Either they discerned that Calvin did agree or they did not discern Calvin agreed.

All those who discerned Calvin agreed to the death of Servetus are divided into two categories. Either they discerned this by their own intellect or they discerned it by the Holy Spirit.

When you break an idea down into a logical process of establishing whether something is one choice or another, then you are thinking rationally and logically. What is wrong with that?

This does NOT mean that those who did not discern that Calvin agreed do not have the Holy Spirit. They could have the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit didn't give them the information. The are still my brothers and sisters, but they perhaps they didn't ask, or perhaps they asked but doubted.

As to Paul's prayer being in Scripture, what's your point, so is the Lord's prayer. This is no argument against what I said. I know Jesus prayed, but He did so privately.

Where in Scripture did Jesus or any of His followers lead a multitude in prayer or even hold a prayer meeting? Is it wrong to pray? Of course not! Just don't try to convince anyone you're holy by some superficial jesture. You won't fool a true believer.

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1saved said:
Brother Fred,

Thank you so much for your reply, as it has reinforced the testimony of Dr. MacArthur in his book "Reckless Faith."

George your missing the point John Macarthur isn't condemning Calvin for the death of Servetus he is pointing out that the Roman Catholic Church persecuted more people (and if they had gotten their hands on Servetus before he went to Geneva he would have been burned by them) then the Protestants did. As Fred pointed out he is setting up a historical contrast. Something you seem to be missing. That being said Horton is then providing the necessary information with regards to how Servetus' death came about and what John Calvin's role was regarding it.

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I want you to be assured that I greatly admire Dr. MacArthur as a Bible teacher and acknowledge him as my brother in Christ. That said, I also want to tell you that I do not agree with everything Dr. MacArthur writes, but I do agree with a great majority of what he teaches.

In fact, when I first was saved in September, 1996, I received the bulk of my doctrine from the teaching of Dr. MacArthur while listening to his radio program "Grace To You" every morning while going to work on WMBI.

I have heard his 6-part tape message entitled "The Way To Heaven" and agree with every thing John said. I also recommend his 8-part tape message entitled "True Worship." I highly recommend these teachings of Dr. MacArthur for everyone to listen to and would suggest to every minister they be required listening within their church. I also liked Dr. MacArthur's tapes entitled "Show Me Your Faith", which is his expositional commentary of the Book of James. There are other teachings of Dr. MacArthur I could recommend, but I'll time out before I can finish.

I also recommend Dr. James M. Boice as a Bible teacher. I also do not agree with everything he wrote.

George the more I read from your posts the more I am convinced that you don't understand anything that either John MacArthur or James Boice taught. In fact I see more of a tendency for "ear tickling" than for true understanding you just listen to what you want to hear not what the Scriptures are plainly teaching.

And last but not least George
Quote
Fred asked George this:

With that re-posted, I might ask George - 1saved - a question: What relevance does Calvin's involvement with Servetus have on how we understand predestination, election, the atonement, etc? I always find it slightly amusing that any time Calvinism is involved in a discussion, at some point the anti-Calvinist antagonist will drag out the burned corpse of Michael Servetus as to why the Five points of Calvinism are heretical and should be rejected. But what bearing does the death of Servetus have on understanding what the Bible teaches on the nature of salvation? How does Servetus's unjust death change the exegesis of Romans 9 or Ephesians 1 or 1 John 2:2 for that matter? It is illogical to suggest that Calvin's involvement with Servetus nullifies the Bible's teaching on the doctrines of grace as Calvin taught in his theology and his followers continued to teach after his death. This is similar logic employed by anti-Bush haters who think Bush's drunkenness in college 30 years ago has some connection to American military policy in Iraq today. Maybe you can answer these questions George before Joe posts you back.

Do you think you have wherewithal to answer Fred's questions here? I know you gave him the glad hand routine when you found out that he was employed by John MacArthur but you seemed to avoid the direct questions. Think you can answer now or will you just keep avoiding it?

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1saved said:
Thanks for the warning, although I'm not afraid I'll be deceived by any false teaching, since I trust the in-dwelling Holy Spirit to guide me and teach me truth from fallacy.

I'm afraid that you've already proven that statement false here on these forums Sir.

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1saved said:
Thank you brother, Kyle.

This website has a very long dissertation on the events surrounding both Calvin and Servetus. I stopped before reading a third of the material.
Too much conviction for you George? Perhaps you weren't finding what you wanted ie: the condemnation of John Calvin?

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The way from Vienne or Toulouse, where he may have gone first, leads through Grenoble, Modane, and Turin. Why then such a wearisome detour? Moreover he had every reason to avoid Geneva because Calvin had warned him for many years. As early as 1546, he wrote to Farel that should Servetus come to Geneva he would not leave alive, provided his authority was still respected. From the connection of the letter, I conclude he must have written to Servetus in like manner. According to the documents of the trial, Servetus. seemed to be of the opinion that Calvin himself served notice on him in Vienne.

The testimony above says the official documents of the trial of Servetus may imply something different than what Dr. Horton wrote, i.e. there is no official trial record of malice toward Servetus by Calvin. I'm hoping Dr. Horton or a representative of his will clarify this apparent conflicting testimony between Hunt and Dr. Horton.

I am not a representative of Dr Michael Horton but I think I can clear this up easily let me quote from James White:

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Further, Dave [Hunt] is not a scholar. In fact, he is proud of his lack of training in biblical languages, historical backgrounds, etc., (and the requisite training in the use of source materials in a proper and fair way that goes along with those studies). His tradition eschews that kind of study as being “elitist,” and surely that attitude resonates with many in evangelicalism today where, due to post-modern influences, everyone’s opinion is considered equal to everyone else’s. (here is the entire quote: http://aomin.org/CalvCon.html)

Dave hunt isn't a scholar, any works he submits must then be held to strict scrutiny because his lack of scholarship errors are likely to occur. Something that was pointed out frequently in Dave Hunt's book on Calvinism. Dave Hunt got it all wrong George, completely. Numerous times it was pointed out to him by Calvinists and Non-calvinists alike that he was wrong in his assertions. If you had read more than a third (or less) of the dissertations there this would have been obvious to you.

Okay George issue solved lets move on.

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1saved said:
Dave,

To answer your rebuttal to me, I can definitely say that the evidence of praying doesn't mean anything. There any many Roman Catholic monasteries and convents where prayer is done continually.

As a matter of fact, prayer should be done privately, in secret. Matthew 6:6 So, if Calvin's prayers were open to public knowledge, this only indicates he didn't follow Scripture.

As far as I'm concerned, this case is closed. Pilgrim has admitted John Calvin agreed to the death of Servetus, when Pilgrim wrote, "...because he agreed that Servetus got a fair trial and received a just punishment for his sin, even though he tried to change the method of his execution to something other than burning at the stake."

The only difference between the subject of the discussion and Pilgrim's statement is the difference in meaning between 'sanctioned' and 'agreed'.

George that must be the most idiotic statement I ever read in my entire life up to this point (I don't know I haven't read the rest of your posts perhaps your lack of sense degrades further) Pilgrim categorically stated that you were in error! https://www.the-highway.com/forum/showthr...mp;o=7&vc=1 Admit the truth you are wrong!

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