Pilgrim said: Perhaps some have been unduly influenced by pietistic individualism in their view of worship and thus diminish and/or denigrate the corporate aspect of the true worship of God.
And perhaps others have been unduly influenced by institutionalized religion in their view of Christianity and thus reduce the worship of God to the performing of devotional activities for brief periods in particular places.
Pilgrim said: The concept of worship doesn’t find its origin in the Temple and the festivals celebrated by the nation of Israel but rather beginning in Genesis with the very purpose for which man was created, i.e., to glorify God and to serve Him in the concrete reality of the world.
Agreed. And the true worship of God has never consisted of external religious devotions. It has always been a love for God manifested by righteous actions that both glorify God and serve Him in the concrete reality of the world.
Stuart DiNenno said: Agreed. And the true worship of God has never consisted of external religious devotions. It has always been a love for God manifested by righteous actions that both glorify God and serve Him in the concrete reality of the world.
How sad that you didn't read anything other than that one statement, which you also have taken out of context; I was showing the origin of worship only, and ignored all else that I wrote. I showed that true worship is BOTH narrowly defined as the corporate gathering of God's people, etc., and widely defined as the expression of obedience to God in all of life, which is actually one's "service" (Heb 12:1, 2) to God. The biblical evidence is incontrovertible that there is to be a corporate gathering of the people of God for the specific purpose of offering worship to God which consists of the reading/preaching of the Word, prayer, praise, song and offerings. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/igiveup.gif" alt="" />
Pilgrim said: The biblical evidence is incontrovertible that there is to be a corporate gathering of the people of God for the specific purpose of offering worship to God which consists of the reading/preaching of the Word, prayer, praise, song and offerings.
The biblical evidence is incontrovertible that there is to be a corporate gathering on the Lord's day of the people of God, which consists of reading/preaching/discussing the word, along with prayer, psalm-singing, and offerings. I never disputed that fact. And if you want to call that a worship service, then that is what you will do. But the Scriptures never refer to either synagogue meetings or NT church meetings as worship services or anything synonymous to that, nor is the term worship applied to the individual functions performed in the synagogue or church meeting.
And it is an error to think of the NT church meeting place as a sort of scaled-down and localized version of the OT Temple. The parallel is between the church meeting and the synagogue meeting, not the church meeting and the Temple worship. The latter has been completely abrogated and has no NT counterpart. Therefore, it is erroneous to think of the NT church building as if it is a holy place and apply the nomenclature to it that applied to the Temple ("the sanctuary," "the house of God," etc.). And it is also erroneous to think of the NT church meeting as a ritualistic and formal "worship service" akin to the Temple worship.
The performing of outward rituals during brief periods in particular situations is not now, and never was, the true worship. Love of God, which is manifested by one's keeping of His commandments (all of them), and, secondarily, love to our fellow man, which is also manifested by the keeping of God's commandments (all of them), is, and always has been, the true worship. This was at least acknowledged by some of the Jews who took part in the symbolic offerings and sacrifices of the Temple worship:
"And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love [his] neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God." (Mark 12:32-34)
The love of God and our fellow man is more (much more) than the performance of outward religious rituals. Jesus Christ clearly declared that the love of God and the love of our fellow man is the fulfillment of all of God's will revealed in the Holy Scriptures:
"Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." (Mat. 22:36-40)
And how is the love of God and of our neighbour manifested? By the keeping of His commandments, not only the commandments regulating our behavior during church meetings but all of His commandments as they apply to all of life. This is a fact expressed repeatedly throughout the word of God (Exo. 20:6; Deu. 5:10, 7:9, 11:1,13,22, 19:9, 30:16; Jos.22:5; Neh. 1:5; Dan. 9:4; John 14:15,21, 15:10; 1 John 5:2-3; 2 John 1:6) The worship of God is to love Him with all the heart, soul, and mind, and that love is manifested by diligently searching out the will of God in the Scriptures and carefully applying biblical precepts to all of life. This "is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices" of ritualistic worship services. The worshippers of whom Christ said that "the Father seeketh such to worship him" are those who love Him and obey Him throughout the entirety of their lives, not those who think that they are worshipping God by performing a few hours of religious devotions while they hypocritically ignore numerous biblical precepts in everyday life.
This might seem like an inconsequential matter to some but it has greatly negative consequences in the church. Words have meaning and when we use a word that God has given us in a way that is at variance with its usage in the Scriptures, this perverts its meaning and consequently perverts our beliefs and practices. When one defines worship as something that he does only during brief periods in certain situations, or something that he does to a higher degree only during brief periods in certain situations, rather than something he does fully throughout all of his life, he is creating a dualistic belief system which invariably leads to a dualistic practice where God is only obeyed and reverenced at certain times and places, or to a higher degree at certain times and places, rather than obeyed and reverenced fully at all times and in all situations of his life. This has certainly become the norm in the denominational congregations where, in the vast majority of cases, the Bible has been partitioned off almost entirely from the congregant's life outside of his few hours of "worship service," and many have come to believe that they are not worshipping God until they enter their "house of worship."
Stuart said: And perhaps others have been unduly influenced by institutionalized religion in their view of Christianity and thus reduce the worship of God to the performing of devotional activities for brief periods in particular places.
When I contemplate your response, I can not help but wonder where you go to Church. I am not aware of any Churches that believe the way you do about worship. Would you mind telling us where?
yeh, yeh, we have read your diatribes before which totally reject the biblical teaching on worship. But what we haven't seen is EXEGETICAL PROOF that "worship" is directly, specifically, and solely related to the individuals keeping of the commandments in contradistinction to the truth believed by the Church for two millennia. Are you capable of doing that? Are you going to do that? Another thing we haven't seen is your answer to the questions, 1) What church/denomination are you a member of? and 2) What writers can you point to that have held the same views that you do in regard to "worship" and the function/responsibilities of "Elders" and "Pastors"?
However, if you continue to post these repetitive replies which simply echo what you have said many times over and which fail to address the issue in a meaningful way, aka: discussion, they will be deleted so as to save space and to prevent the boredom of our members which accompanies the reading of them.
Pilgrim said: But what we haven't seen is EXEGETICAL PROOF that "worship" is directly, specifically, and solely related to the individuals keeping of the commandments in contradistinction to the truth believed by the Church for two millennia. Are you capable of doing that? Are you going to do that?
The burden of proof is on you to show your delineation, not on me to show my non-delineation. I say that the believer can manifest a worshipful heart in all that he does. You say that worship is something which a man does at particular times in particular situations. In other words, you believe that a worship/non-worship delineation exists in the Bible and I do not. Now, I cannot point to a delineation which I do not believe to exist in the Bible and say, "there it is not." If you maintain that a worship/non-worship delineation exists, then you must point to it and say "there it is."
And while you are doing that please tell me:
Where does the Bible draw a parallel between the Old Testament Temple worship and the New Testament church meeting?
Where in the Bible are synagogue assemblies or church meetings every referred to as "worship services" or anything similar to that?
Where in the Bible was anyone ever said to be in the synagogue assembly or church meeting for worship, or said to be going to a synagogue assembly or church meeting for worship?
Where in the New Testament Scriptures is any function of the synagogue assembly or church meeting every referred to as an act of worship?
When the word worship is used in the New Testament Scriptures in reference to a particular location, why is it only applied to the Temple and never to synagogue assemblies or church meetings?
Also, I do not always immediately back up every statement I make with biblical exegesis. But if you quote anything that I said which was not biblically supported and you challenge me to support it, then I will do so.
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Pilgrim said: Another thing we haven't seen is your answer to the questions, 1) What church/denomination are you a member of? and 2) What writers can you point to that have held the same views that you do in regard to "worship" and the function/responsibilities of "Elders" and "Pastors"?
As I wrote in another thread, I am here to discuss biblical issues from a Sola Scriptura perspective and nothing else. if you want to make me the topic of discussion or if you want to compare my doctrine to that of any other man, you may do so. But, again, I am here to discuss biblical issues from a Sola Scriptura perspective and nothing else.
Having said that, I will also say this to all in this forum who call themselves Reformed: I know that this might be hard for you to swallow, but the fact is that although the Protestant Reformation reformed Christian doctrine to a great extent it never fully reformed the church back to apostolic principles. And if you want to build on the work of the Reformers (instead of just resting on it) and you want your motto of "always reforming" to be more than empty words, then you have to be willing to consider the possibility that the Reformers did not complete the job and that more work needs to be done. And if you are going to further the work of reformation, then you must be willing to go directly to the Bible alone rather than filtering every doctrine through their writings to determine its validity.
Stuart DiNenno quipped: The burden of proof is on you to show your delineation, not on me to show my non-delineation.
Give me a break, will ya? Did you READ anything of the post you just replied to? There are myriad biblical references, historical references, etc., all which show the biblical foundation and definition of worship as well as the progressive development of true worship from Genesis through the New Testament.
Again, you can't even give me credit for what I have said about worship, e.g., it is to be seen BOTH in a narrow sense (corporate/public) and in a wider sense (sanctified living). You totally reject the biblical teaching concerning worship in its narrow sense without warrant nor proof. Your lack of biblical knowledge is embarrassing but your lack of a teachable spirit is frightening. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rolleyes2.gif" alt="" />
Now that Stuart has departed I want to thank you Pilgrim for bringing light to this subject. I also appreciated the input by many others in this thread. Unfortunately Stuart has a lot to learn and resists being taught.
I'd like to submit a portion of an article I've just read today on this topic written by Cliff Bajema who is currently serving as campus pastor at Doort Christian College in NW Iowa. I think he brings out many good points about what our worship should look like and why.
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I think worship is a corporate experience where God's people come together before the face of God to receive a word from Him and to respond. God can speak through songs, proclamation, reading of scripture. and various liturgical moments such as the assurance of pardon, call to confession, and the reading of the law. The people respond through prayers, songs, litanies, confessions, professions of faith, offerings of themselves and of talents and gifts. I also think fellowship should occur in a worship context.
If we pay attention to the biblical models of worship and biblical prescriptions of worship, we do as scripture says in Acts 2: "They devoted themselves to the apostle's teaching, the breaking of bread, the fellowship, and the prayers."
When we say they devoted themselves to fellowship, that wasn't just exchanging handshakes and hugs and waving at each other in the congregation; it was far more substantial. People had a sense of responsibility for one another. This came together in worship.
Another part of worship was "the prayers." For the early church, I take "the prayers" to mean that there was already a collection of prayers that came from the apostles, from Jesus, from the prophets, the Psalms, and from people like David and Moses. Today in individual or small group worship, we break into spontaneous prayers, and say whatever is on our minds and whatever is in our thoughts. That is fine, it's personal. In more formal, corporate worship contexts, some have a time of prayer requests. People say "My Aunt Minnie's got cancer, my Uncle Charlie's in the hospital, or this person is unemployed." The preacher then prays for that. But that likely isn't what was going on in the book of Acts.
Was it more than that? Absolutely. I think it was the collection, the reading, the sharing, the collective memory of God's people, of the prayers they had received from the apostles and the prophets. In other words, they were sharing scriptural prayers with each other. What I have seen happen in prayer in worship contexts in evangelical churches, in which I would include the CRC, is that prayer has become largely petitionary, largely intercessory, largely need-based, and largely spontaneously-offered and collected. Not a lot of attention is given to memorized scriptures and prayers of the saints; and that is where I think the liturgical churches have a much better handle on prayer than we do.
I think he brings out some very good points. When we worship, our focus should be on the one we worship and all that He has given the church to help us to worship Him responsibly. Too often today the focus is on the worshiper and his needs and desires.
May God help us to worship Him in Spirit and in truth. And may we benefit from all He's given us to do this in a way that is pleasing to Him.
Wes
When I survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died, my richest gain I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride. - Isaac Watts
Was it more than that? Absolutely. I think it was the collection, the reading, the sharing, the collective memory of God's people, of the prayers they had received from the apostles and the prophets. In other words, they were sharing scriptural prayers with each other.
Wes, your post reminded me of a little prayer book that came to me when my Grandfather died. He and my Grandmother read it each morning before breakfast. It is a compilation of 365 prayers and was first published in 1916.
Here is today's entry--January 21:
Lord God, Heavenly Father, we Thy children come before Thee to thank Thee and to praise Thee. We thank Thee for the gift of Thy dear Son Jesus Christ, and that Thou hast kindled faith and love in our hearts through the Holy Spirit. We thank Thee for peace of soul through the forgiveness of sin and for the blessed hope of eternal life. We thank Thee also for the opportunity to labor in our earthly calling and thereby to render service to Thee, to our dear ones, and to our fellowmen in general.
Bless us, Heavenly Father, as individuals, that we may have the strength always to do our duty as it is made clear to us. Bless us as a nation, a Christian people, that the high hopes placed in us by the peoples in distress may not be shattered. Bless Thy church that it may have the power always to witness to the truth and to spread the light of Thy Gospel everywhere. Strengthen and succor us, O God, in our trial and temptations, that we be not overcome. Give us willingness to witness for Christ wherever we go, and help us gladly to share our temporal blessings with those who are in physical want. Lead us through the hours of the day, and watch over us through the night. And when Thou art done with us here on earth, take use to Thyself in glory. We ask it in the name of Jesus, our Blessed Redeemer. Amen.
Carl J. Bengston, D.D. Rock Island, IL
Trust the past to God's mercy, the present to God's love and the future to God's providence." - St. Augustine Hiraeth
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yeh, yeh, we have read your diatribes before which totally reject the biblical teaching on worship. But what we haven't seen is EXEGETICAL PROOF that "worship" is directly, specifically, and solely related to the individuals keeping of the commandments in contradistinction to the truth believed by the Church for two millennia. Are you capable of doing that? Are you going to do that? Another thing we haven't seen is your answer to the questions, 1) What church/denomination are you a member of? and 2) What writers can you point to that have held the same views that you do in regard to "worship" and the function/responsibilities of "Elders" and "Pastors"?![[Linked Image]](http://www.the-highway.com/Smileys/biggrinking.gif)
