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#2894 Mon May 19, 2003 10:02 AM
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Kalled2Preach,

Unfortunately your analogy between what Augustine's thoughts were in regard to the teaching of pagan philosophers and music is irrelevant. You are trying to compare apples and oranges. There is "true truth", i.e., objective true which has been given by God. This is the standard by which all teaching must be measured. However, with music "style", this is something God did NOT create. God created the sounds, tones, ability to hear, etc., with which man has put together in various arrangements and called "music". There are certain configurations which are expressive of the nature and attributes of God and thus are said to "glorify" God. The "intent, motive" of the composer has little to no bearing upon what is God glorifying. The result of the composition, its structure, complexity, harmony, dissonance, meter, etc. as can be determined objectively and the effect that it has upon one's mind and soul are to be the determining factors of whether or not it is suitable for a child of God to listen to and/or to be used in the worship of God.
In reply to:
I believe that Christian men can lay hold of some things of this world and use them to bring the truth of the gospel to people who are dead in sin.

Yes, this is certainly possible and something which if it wasn't possible, we would as Christians be in serious trouble, as life itself would be nearly impossible. grin The question is, however, what "things of this world" are we ALLOWED to use and which are ordained of God for our use in bringing the Gospel? Let's be very clear on one thing, shall we? The effectiveness of the Gospel to save sinners is NOT dependent upon any "thing", method or person. As Paul has written, "For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." (Rom 1:16). And Peter wrote, "having been begotten again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which liveth and abideth." (1Pet 1:23). The salvation of the worst of sinners is to be seen NOT in the use of "things" but in the working of the Holy Spirit through the preaching of the pure Gospel of Jesus Christ. We simply do not NEED "things" to help God the Spirit save sinners. God has been saving His elect for millennia quite nicely and never lost one, and without the aid of "things" being added to the Gospel.

In reply to:
A preacher standing before a room of punk teenagers is not going to be well accepted and may even cause all of those people to leave. But a band of people who are on their level, preaching to them in words they can understand and accepting them in hopes that God may save some...that is a biblical mindset.

A preacher standing before a room of punk teenagers may indeed be rejected. Would you really expect anything less? Isn't this the normal reaction that one should expect when you have darkness and light in the same room? There is no desire or need of "light" to those who are in darkness (Jh 1:5; 3:19; Eph 4:17-19; 6:12; et al). It isn't just "punk teenagers" who would have a natural aversion, even hatred, of a man who represents the true God and speaks His truth. ALL who are born into this world are born with a natural hatred of God and all that pertains to Him. So, if you bring in a "punk band" and these teenagers who are naturally haters of God and all that is good and right, have no hostility toward those in the band, doesn't that tell you something? It should tell you what the Scriptures speak of in many places....... "For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world." (1Jh 2:16) Bringing in something which is sinful to attract sinners is certainly not condoned by God and certainly cannot be seen as being compatible with a Gospel which would have those who would be reconciled to God, REPENT; a turning FROM sin and BELIEVE on a Saviour Who was cursed and punished for the very sins they are reveling in. God doesn't love people the way the are. He hates the way they are and has sent forth His Son to suffer in the place of them for what and who they are.

Choosing whether or not to eat Alberta beef or to drink a glass of wine is certainly a matter of personal preference. But choosing to sin or not sin is NOT a matter of personal preference. The issue, once again is that the Scripture does NOT teach that there are "things" (anything) which are "Amoral". Everything that exists is either good (glorifies God) or it is bad (opposes God). It is also true, that men may take that which is good and use it for evil. Further, men may partake of that which is good and which has even been enjoined by God and it can become something which should be abstained from. This is the situation with the use of things "indifferent" (Adiaphora) to which Paul addresses the churches concerning the Weak and Strong.

You are going to first show that "Metalcore", "Punk", "ska", "Rock & Roll", etc., etc., is "good".... i.e., that each form of music is expressive/reflective of the nature and attributes of God. Further, you are going to have to show that the affect of this music upon the mind, body and soul of those who hear it brings people more in line with what God intends for mankind to be; i.e., does the music promote the being conformed into the image of Christ? As much as I have a dislike for the "What Would Jesus Do?" mentality and its total distortion of biblical truth concerning sanctification, morals, etc... there is some merit in asking the question whether or not the Lord Christ would be involved, approve, etc. of an activity, thing, etc. Thus, we might ask if it is plausible that the God-man, Christ Jesus would be part of a "Punk Band"? Is it actually conceivable that the Lord of the Universe would get on a stage and bang upon a guitar, gyrating to the beat of "music" played at 110 decibels, and scream into a microphone to an audience in order to help them accept Him as Lord and Saviour?



In His Grace,


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simul iustus et peccator

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J_Edwards #2895 Mon May 19, 2003 10:07 AM
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But pronography and adultry are blatant sin. God gave man music to praise Him with and glorify Him with. Psalm 150,
Praise Him with trumpet sound; Praise Him with harp and lyre. Praise Him with timbrel and dancing; Praise Him with stringed instruments and pipe. Praise Him with loud cymbals; Praise Him with resounding cymbals. Let everything that has breath praise the LORD. Praise the LORD! (Psalms 150:3-6 NASB)
Unregenerate men just took it and used it for their own purposes. So why can't Christians take what is rightfully theirs to begin with back from them?



Pilgrim #2896 Mon May 19, 2003 10:23 AM
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In reply to:
[color:"blue"]Thus, we might ask if it is plausible that the God-man, Christ Jesus would be part of a "Punk Band"? Is it actually conceivable that the Lord of the Universe would get on a stage and bang upon a guitar, gyrating to the beat of "music" played at 110 decibels, and scream into a microphone to an audience in order to help them accept Him as Lord and Saviour?

You make a very valid point there. And I don't see Jesus as a punk rocker. But then I come to this thought. If the music is sinful, as you are saying it is, then is going to a punk show sinful? And if so, then Christians need to avoid those places at all costs and if they do avoid, then those people are never going to hear the truth.


#2897 Mon May 19, 2003 10:37 AM
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<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]But pronography and adultry are blatant sin. God gave man music to praise Him with and glorify Him with. Psalm 150,</font><hr></blockquote><p> Thank you for making my point once again. Adultery is blatant sin because it is the misuse of God's gift of sex.....and since, God is the giver of His (true) music, things such as rock, metalcore, punk, et. al..........are depraved man's misuse of God's gift (which you agree with in your next statement [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin[/img]), thus sin!!! Thus, you should not be doing it!!!<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Unregenerate men just took it and used it for their own purposes. So why can't Christians take what is rightfully theirs to begin with back from them?</font><hr></blockquote><p> Your statement has no foundation, because there is no place in Scripture it tells one to punk out or metalcore........et. al. ...<br><br>This is going in circles and I can see you will defend you folly no matter how many time it is disproved by God's Word. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/igiveup.gif" alt="igiveup" title="igiveup[/img]


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#2898 Mon May 19, 2003 10:39 AM
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In reply to:
If the music is sinful, as you are saying it is, then is going to a punk show sinful?

I am hoping that this is a rhetorical question! If XXX movies are sinful, then is going to the movie theater to watch them, sinful? [Linked Image]

In reply to:
And if so, then Christians need to avoid those places at all costs and if they do avoid, then those people are never going to hear the truth.

The simple answer is that God IS sovereign. He has decreed who it is He will be reconciled to. He has foreordained every movement of everything, including those who go to punk concerts and those who preach the truth about Christ to the world. Thus, I seriously doubt that even one of those who attend these types of places is going to be lost or even saved later than he/she would have been otherwise, if Christians don't attend these concerts. Unless I'm totally unaware of what is happening out "there", I would think that these "punkers" do frequent other places, eh? You aren't going to tell me that these Punk Concerts are something which go on 24/7 for 365 days of the year are you? rofl

Seriously.... God will save all who He has determined to save. God will move in the hearts of those who He has determined to bring the Good News to go where these people are without them having to wallow in sin or to commit sin to speak the truth of salvation. The providence of God is actually quite amazing if you would think about it. wink

In His Grace,



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#2899 Mon May 19, 2003 10:46 AM
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In reply to:
And if so, then Christians need to avoid those places at all costs and if they do avoid, then those people are never going to hear the truth.



Kalled2Preach, think about what you have written here. Do you really believe that if someone does not hear the Gospel at a "Christian" punk rock concert that there is no other means throughout their ordinary lives that they may be confronted with the truth of the Christian faith? These folks are not going to live at the concerts 24 hours per day for the rest of their lives. They have family who might be Christians and some of them probably even have jobs. grin Are you going to apply this same argument to advocate the need for Christians to have their own brothels and adult film studios that contain the Gospel message? My point is not to connect these activities as equally wrong, but to show why justifying the means by the end does not work. It is simply not our duty to engage in behavior that is unglorifying to God for the purpose of sharing the Gospel with fellow participants. Let God be the director of their providential opportunity for hearing the Gospel, we need to trust and obey.

Sincerely in Christ,

Jason


#2900 Mon May 19, 2003 11:30 AM
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I used to revel at Punk Rock shows. But the Lord brought me to church where I was saved.

Pilgrim #2901 Mon May 19, 2003 11:33 AM
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Bravo!

J_Edwards #2902 Mon May 19, 2003 11:59 AM
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if I reason this way than I should become an adulterer, so I can minister to adulators

No Joe.
I believe you have presupposed that the music is evil, and thus used said that as adultery is an unbiblical form of sex, so too is metal an unbiblical form of music. The problem is those who disagree with you here are not conceding that metal is inherently bad.

Proper reasoning would be that a married person (or a widowed) should minister to those caught in adultery. A Roman Catholic celibate priest would not likely be effective, nor would he be taken seriously. That doesn't mean that it is impossible that a Roman priest could be effective, as it is conceivable that an unmarried man could understand fully the trials and tribulations of marriage, but that his lack of experience could be a detriment.

Likewise a group of unregenerate metal-heads would be more likely to listen to someone who understands them. Someone who either likes or liked the genre of music would be able to relate to them. This doesn't mean that the person has to like or have liked the evil stuff....but an awareness and understanding of the genre.

To minister we must at least understand (notice I didn't say partake) the sin...right?

For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.

Steve


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#2903 Mon May 19, 2003 12:05 PM
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Alright. So my statement about those people not hearing the gospel was not one of the most intelligent things I have ever said in my life. But I think my point was that we have a responsibility to preach the Truth to all peoples. And if I am going to follow Christ's example, then I need to meet people where they are at. I can't drag someone kicking and screaming where they don't want to go.

J_Edwards #2904 Mon May 19, 2003 12:10 PM
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But the Bible also never says that rock music is sin either.

#2905 Mon May 19, 2003 12:14 PM
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What ever is not of faith is sin!--- How did God give you a measure of faith for something He regards as evil (2 Tim 2:24-26)?


Reformed and Always Reforming,
li0scc0 #2906 Mon May 19, 2003 12:18 PM
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In reply to:
I believe you have presupposed that the music is evil, and thus used said that as adultery is an unbiblical form of sex, so too is metal an unbiblical form of music. The problem is those who disagree with you here are not conceding that metal is inherently bad.

No Steve, I no more think music is evil than I think sex within the confines of marriage is evil. But when both become perverted by man adultery and/or rock and roll, roll out the red carpet of satan's ways. And the reason why some do not concede that metal, et. al is evil is they fail to see it as a manipulation of God's best and are willing to accept something less than what God has ordained, thus entering into sin.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.



Reformed and Always Reforming,
J_Edwards #2907 Mon May 19, 2003 12:31 PM
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It seems to me like the mindset is that certain styles of music are evil in themselves and I just can not see that side of things. I can see where certain types of movies are bad. Christians should not make pornos. And I can see where homosexuality is bad because the Bible condemns it. But the Bible doesn't condemn rock music. <br><br>Pronography is bad because it glorifies fornication, but that doesn't mean that all film making is evil. Secular rock music is bad because it glorifies things other than God, but that doesn't make all rock music evil in and of itself. The root of film making wasn't to present the gospel and yet today there are Christian movies.

J_Edwards #2908 Mon May 19, 2003 12:40 PM
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Sorry I wasn't clear Joe...I said "the music". Not all music. I would not imply that you think all music is sin. Just "the music", where "the" implies the topic of this thread.

I'm simply saying you are presupposing that metal music is inherently evil.

Here's a question...is all instrumental music evil? If the answer is yes, then metal music could be considered evil, as it is mainly instrumental. However, then so too is the introduction that the organist plays at church without the choir and congregation singing.

If the answer is no, then there is no foundation to say "the music" is inherently evil. Godly men and women may be using their talents to glorify God.

Why can't somebody who is a talented guitar player, bass player, drummer, etc. glorify God by playing extremely challenging and difficult (and in many cases quite intricate and precise) music?

Steve


Grace is not common.
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