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#2924 Tue May 20, 2003 11:50 AM
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[Linked Image]<br><br>[Linked Image]<br><br><br>I wouldn't touch this thread with a ten foot pole....just thought it could use some lightening up<br><br>[img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/rofl.gif" alt="rofl" title="rofl[/img]

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<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]I wouldn't touch this thread with a ten foot pole</font><hr></blockquote><p> Did you mean a ten foot drum stick [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/rofl.gif" alt="rofl" title="rofl[/img]<br><br>I see you have caught on very well how to post those "gif" images [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/clapping.gif" alt="clapping" title="clapping[/img]


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Hey...I do what I can <br>[img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/thankyou.gif" alt="thankyou" title="thankyou[/img]<br><br>Humbly Yours,

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<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Whether one "likes" the symphony is irrelevant, although the reason one dislikes it may be an indication of where one is spiritually. For if one rejects such pieces of music because they find them "boring", then this does reveal that the individual is looking and needing that "emotional fix"; that emotional "high" which "Rock-style" music produces and was designed to do.</font><hr></blockquote><p>I am just asking a question here, and if I am off topic, let me know, but is it wrong to desire to have your emotions stirred? Not all rock music that I have heard makes me angry. Some makes me feel happy. Same with reading Christian literature. Some Christian literature makes me happy. But if someone doesn't like to read Augustine or John Piper, then they aren't going to have the same emotional response to it as I would. Some hymns in our hymnals, the music is such that it makes one happy and makes one sad. Is this wrong too? I am just asking questions. Not for the purpose of debate. This post just stood out to me.<br><br>

Last edited by Kalled2Preach; Tue May 20, 2003 1:41 PM.
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In reply to:
[color:"blue"]but is it wrong to desire to have your emotions stirred?

No, there is nothing wrong with one's emotions being stirred. However, certain kinds of music, because of the way they are designed, will stir the emotions which are not godly. ALL music moves the emotions. This is what we have been trying to get across to you. EVERYONE knows that some musical forms go directly to the emotive part of man and bypass the intellect entirely. And those emotions which are stirred are contrary to what the Scriptures teach are good, wholesome, pure, etc. It is also a truism, that good hymns, those songs which are designed for worship, first and foremost are those which penetrate the intellect with their biblical themes. These themes are to be doctrinally accurate etc... And, the music part of the hymn should be simply an accompaniment; i.e., it is complimentary in that it emphasizes the words and does not call attention to itself. Thus a good hymn is first taken in by the mind and the truths which it speaks of through the lyrics stimulates the emotions so that the entire person is given over to worship; mind, emotions and body.

All these contemporary forms of music are DESIGNED to go directly to the emotive element of man. They do not and cannot move a person to worship the true living God as He has declared Himself to be and in the manner which He has revealed. They become like a drug; addictive and like drugs, they cloud the mind. Consequently, inhibitions are broken down and the beat of the music captures the soul and what results is hardly Christlike. Today, this phenomena is called "freedom of expression"! It screams "autonomy" and is contrary to that which the Scriptures teach concerning one being a slave to righteousness as opposed to being a slave to sin and one's depravity. Again, I ask you..... can you honestly say that the emotions which are stirred up and expressed by those who attend these "Heavy Metal", "Punk Rock", "ska" concerts are expressive of what the Bible calls "holy"? "pure"?, "chaste"? etc.

"As a man thinketh, so is he . . ." (Prov 23:7) What picture of God is being portrayed at these types of concerts?

"In the beginning, God created man is His own image. And ever since that day, man has been trying to return the favor."

"All men become like the objects of their worship. Our inward character is being silently moulded by our view of God and our conception of him. Christian character is the fruit of Christian worship; pagan character the fruit of pagan religion; semi-Christian character the fruit of a half-true understanding of God. The principle holds good for us all: we become like what we worship ­ for worse or for better. 'They that make them are like unto them' (Psa. 115:8)." — Maurice Roberts
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<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]"As a man thinketh, so is he . . ." (Prov 23:7) What picture of God is being portrayed at these types of concerts?</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>IMO, this is all one needs to consider to know if this is pleasing to God. Simple, eh? <br>


Trust the past to God's mercy, the present to God's love and the future to God's providence." - St. Augustine
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In reply to:
[color:"blue"]IMO, this is all one needs to consider to know if this is pleasing to God. Simple, eh?

[img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/yep.gif" alt="yep" title="yep[/img] Very simple indeed! [Linked Image] So, it would seem that you are saying that we don't need nobody to tell us 'bout nuttin. All we need is to "think" what we are doin' is pleasin' to God and it is, eh? [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/scratch.gif" alt="scratch" title="scratch[/img]

Well, I sure hope this is NOT what you are suggesting. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="laugh[/img] First of all that text from Proverbs is teaching something entirely foreign to this idea. What it is saying that the very heart of man is expressed in his thoughts. Thus if a person thinks he is worshiping God through "Metalcore" or during a drug "high", etc., it reveals the doctrine of God that this person has. It is NOT saying that whatever you "think" is right, is right or any such novelty. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="wink[/img] In the N.T. the Lord Christ made a similar statement: Matthew 24:28 (KJV) "For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together." In the not so distant past, there was a saying that went, "You can always tell a man by the clothes he wears." Now, granted, the uninspired adages can be poked full of holes to suit one's purposes if the heat is turned up. But the truth that all these sayings are conveying is that men will express themselves outwardly according to what they believe (think) inwardly. The doctrine of total depravity and conversely of regeneration teach the same truth..... man is able to choose and will only choose that which is most important to him at any particular moment. That is, the nature of man dictates what he will say and choose.

So, it isn't what a person's intention is that determines what some act truly is or in this particular issue, if it is glorifying to God or proper worship. A person can run around buck naked through the streets and adamantly declare that he is just communing with God in nature, etc.. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/drop.gif" alt="drop" title="drop[/img] We need an OBJECTIVE standard by which to judge ALL THINGS.... and that one standard is the Scriptures.

"Without absolutes revealed from without by God Himself, we are left rudderless in a sea of conflicting ideas about manners, justice and right and wrong, issuing from a multitude of self-opinionated thinkers." - John Owen (1616-1683)
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Well everybody's said a lot and a lot of emotion has been put into this thread. There are some very interesting links here on the Highway that address this topic too. You may want to see what others have written about this topic.<br><br>Congregational Singing and the Ministry of the Word by Leonard Payton<br><br>Worship in the Melting Pot by Dr. Peter Masters where he writes about the contrast between "Sacred or Profane Worship?"<br><br>There's an interesting article here on the Highway that talks about Pleasing God In Our Worship. It's by Dr. Robert Godfrey and worth the read. Here's a section of that article:<br><br><blockquote>[color:blue]Music and Worship</font color=blue><br><br>Of all the battles in the worship wars, the battle over music probably has been the most evident and the most emotional. Changes in the style of music have divided, frustrated, and even angered worshipers. Should we sing old hymns or praise choruses? Should the music be classical, traditional, folk, rock, contemporary, country and western, or what? Should we use organs and pianos, or guitars and drums? Is music exclusively for praise in the service, or does it have other functions as well? The amount of time given to music in many services has increased greatly. Some services begin with a lengthy time of singing called “praise and worship,” as if singing alone were worship and the rest of the service were something else.<br><br>What are we to make of these matters?<br><br>A change in music — whether to something older or newer — is difficult because most worshipers are not musicians and simply like what is familiar to them. Most worshipers are not motiated by some aesthetic theory, but by the emotional links they have to their familiar music. Because music so powerfully engages and expresses our emotions, it is not surprising that it is an emotional minefield for individuals and congregations.<br><br>As with all ways of worship, we must evaluate music in the first place biblically. We must stand back from our own experiences and preferences and ask again, “What pleases God?” We should recognize that not all music and praise pleases him. Think of the worship and praise that Israel offered to God in the wilderness at Mount Sinai. They made a golden calf, called it the Lord, and danced around it (Exod. 32:4-6). Such praise was an abomination to God and evoked his wrath! We must carefully seek what the Bible says about how we should praise the Lord and make music to him.<br><br>When we think of music in the worship of God, we are really thinking of three issues: 1) the words that we sing, 2) the tunes to which we sing those words, and 3) the instruments we might use to accompany the singing.<br><br>The Words We Sing<br><br>Of these three issues the first is the most important. The words we take upon our lips to sing to God must be true and pleasing to him. The Cambridge Declaration reminds us that one of the problems we face today is what we sing: “Pastors have neglected their rightful oversight of worship, including the doctrinal content of music.” How can we be sure that the words we sing please God? God has given us direction by giving us in the Bible a whole book as a model for what we are to sing. The Book of Psalms (which in Hebrew is entitled the Book of Praises) provides us with songs that God himself has inspired. The Psalms should at least function as the model for what we as Christians sing to God.<br><br>The Songs We Use<br><br>What do the Psalms teach about song? First, they remind us of the rich variety of songs that we can and should present to God. The Psalms contain joyful praise and thanksgiving. The Psalms are called the Book of Praises because they not only contain but also culminate in the praise of God (see especially Pss. 146—150.) But the Psalms contain more than praise. Some Psalms reflect on creation (for example, Pss. 19 and 104); others recount the great saving work of God in Christ (Pss. 2, 22, 24, and 110); still others meditate on the perfections of God’s revealed Word (especially Ps. 119). There are Psalms of lamentation and repentance (Pss. 32, 51, and 137) as well as Psalms that express the confusion and frustration that God’s people sometimes experience living in this fallen world (Pss. 44 and 73). John Calvin rightly observed about the Psalter, “There is not an emotion of which any one can be conscious that is not here presented as in a mirror.”<br><br>In some churches today it seems that only happy, joyful songs are sung. But joy is not the only emotion that Christians experience. Christian worship needs to provide times when sad or reflective emotions are expressed as well as happy ones. A variety of song texts, as we find them in the Psalter, are crucial for that purpose.<br><br>Second, the Psalms also model for us the substance of our singing. A few Psalms are short and have repetitive elements, but most are full, rich, profound responses to God and his work. Singing praise to God, the Psalter reminds us, is not just emotional expression, but a real engagement of the mind. Songs that are very repetitive or shallow and sentimental do not follow the model of the Psalter. The command to love God with all our mind must inform our singing. Mind and emotions together are the model of praise presented to us in the Psalms, and the modern church must work at restoring that union where it has been lost.<br><br>Once we recapture a proper sense of the texts we ought to sing, the other two issues about singing are relatively easy to resolve. What tunes shall we sing? We may use any tune that is singable for a congregation and that supports the content of the song. The tune should reflect the mood and substance of the song in light of the joy and reverence that are appropriate to worship. With those guidelines in mind (and a sensitivity to the congregation’s difficulty with change), the issue of tunes for songs should be resolved smoothly.<br><br>What Kind of Instruments?<br><br>What kind of musical accompaniment is biblical? In Old Testament worship a wide range of instruments was used in the worship of the temple. Yet in the worship of the church it appears that for almost the first thousand years of its history no instruments were used in Christian worship. Today most churches use one or more instruments. But where instruments are used, the instruments should aid the singing of the congregation, not overwhelm it. They should contribute to a deep spirit of reverence and joy, not undermine it.<br><br>Nowhere in the New Testament church are instruments clearly used for worship. They certainly have no central or independent role in worship. At most they should support the singing that the congregation is commanded to do. If that is their purpose, rock bands would be clearly inappropriate for Christian worship, but either an organ or a guitar might be used.<br><br>Music is a powerful and vital element in the worship life of God’s people. But precisely because it is so significant, we need to give careful thought to it. We must be sure that we are pleasing God and not entertaining ourselves. The temptation to turn worship into entertainment is great because as sinners we are much more inclined to be self-centered than God-centered. We are much more inclined to amuse ourselves than to serve God.</blockquote>We must be sure that we are pleasing God and not entertaining ourselves. It's more than just the words but the melody too that should be pleasing to God.<br><br>Wes<br>


When I survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died, my richest gain I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride. - Isaac Watts
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You may rest assured that that is NOT what I meant! Poor choice of words, apparently! I was agreeing with you; one look at the environment, the overall sense of what is going on is enough to see that this cannot be pleasing to God! God is Holy and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth. The "spirit" exhibited in such an environment, music included, does not line up with the truth of scriptures. It is the spirit of the world.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]But the truth that all these sayings are conveying is that men will express themselves outwardly according to what they believe (think) inwardly</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>Right. My point was that the expression was a clear indication of the inward belief. Sorry I was not more clear.<br><br><br>


Trust the past to God's mercy, the present to God's love and the future to God's providence." - St. Augustine
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[img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/thanks.gif" alt="thanks" title="thanks[/img] for the clarification. Admittedly, when I read your reply, I was somewhat confused and thought I should extrapolate a bit to clear away any possibility of confusion. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin[/img]<br><br>


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That's OK. Sometimes I forget that you all don't know me and my way of talking; often short and sweet. My friends have learned to "fill in the blanks!" I consider you friends here. If I posted more often, you'd learn to fill in my blanks, too. (More likely I would learn to be more precise!)


Trust the past to God's mercy, the present to God's love and the future to God's providence." - St. Augustine
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And, again, this may be off topic, so just let me know if it is. The quote from the article in the last post, to me, came acoss like the organ and the piano are the only appropriate instruments to be used in congregational worship. And I have pondered this idea for some time. But doesn't that exclude some instruments used in the Bible? Cuz the Bible mentions tamborines and harps and just the vague mention of "stringed instruments". Does this mean that a guitar can be used? I happen to think a guitar is a beautiful addition to some hymns. Same with some kinds of drums. <br><br>I ask a final question and make a final thought. Who are we to say what instruments are good and bad in song worship? And who are we to say what arrangement of the music is bad? Yes the music should not overpower the words or the message in a congergational singing time, but since when are we allowed to say that God likes or dislikes certain instruments or arrangements simply because of what tradition dictates?

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Kalled2Preach,<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]The quote from the article in the last post, to me, came acoss like the organ and the piano are the only appropriate instruments to be used in congregational worship.</font><hr></blockquote><p>If you read all the links I have provided you will realize that these pastors have a lot more to say about music in worship than what choice of instrument is used. These instruments should contribute to a deep spirit of reverence and joy, not undermine it.<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Who are we to say what instruments are good and bad in song worship? And who are we to say what arrangement of the music is bad?</font><hr></blockquote><p>If you really believe that after all that's been said and written on this topic apparently you're not paying attention. Another article worth reading is Dr. Peter Masters, “Let The Lord Define Worship”.<br><br><center>May the words of our mouths <br>and the meditation of our hearts <br>be acceptable in His sight.</center><br><br>Wes<br>


When I survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died, my richest gain I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride. - Isaac Watts
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