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Joe k #29685 Fri Dec 16, 2005 9:22 PM
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Eternal justification?

No. Eternal love

Does God, on the basis of eternal love, regard the sinner as being righteous before the imputation of the righteousness of Christ by faith? If so, how is that not eternal justification?

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Joe k said:
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God's foreknowledge controls the actions of evil men and puts a limitation on them so that they minister to the salvation of the elect.

What does this mean? "minister to the salvaiton of the elect?'

God will not permit the wickedness of sinners to interfere with the salvation of the elect but uses their wickedness as instrumentalities of His will to save the elect.

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If people maliciously reject God's offers of salvation, He surrenders them to their evil will. He punishes them with temporal and eternal judgments. Is this rebuking of sin foreordained? Yes. Is it done for the purpose of causing the sinner to sin even more? No.

That sure sounds like the you believe in free will to me.
With out God's intervention, all will reject Christ.

Tom

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Is this rebuking of sin foreordained? Yes.
Thank you.

Yes, the fact that judicial hardening occurs means that it must of necessity occur according God's eternal purpose. But this rebuking of sin is not done for the purpose of causing sin or causing the damnation of anyone.

An example of judicial hardening in the NT is excommunication. Christ gave the Church the binding key in John 20:22, 23; Matt. 16:19 and Matt. 18:18. Sinners are delivered unto Satan not to cause sin or their damnation but that they may learn to blaspheme no more (1 Tim. 1:20).

Last edited by speratus; Sat Dec 17, 2005 4:26 AM.
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If people maliciously reject God's offers of salvation, He surrenders them to their evil will. He punishes them with temporal and eternal judgments. Is this rebuking of sin foreordained? Yes. Is it done for the purpose of causing the sinner to sin even more? No.

That sure sounds like the you believe in free will to me.
With out God's intervention, all will reject Christ.

Tom

The moderator will not permit me to comment on your first statement on this thread. I agree with your second statement.

#29689 Sun Dec 18, 2005 11:53 PM
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Cole is in error. See how easy that was? Keep in mind Speratus even Lutherans recognize that Luther taught Double Predestination although they say he taught it inconsistently.

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In view of the quotations from On the Bondage of the Will and Lectures on Romans, it would be better to say that Luther did not consistently teach double predestination.WELS Luther Double Predestination.
For my part I believe that Chemnitz errored in that regards.


Peter

If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself. Augustine of Hippo
Peter #29690 Mon Dec 19, 2005 12:36 AM
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WELS is in error. See how easy that was? No evidence has been presented that Luther taught double predestination in "Bondage of the Will." Foreordination of events should not be confused with predestination to damnation.

#29691 Mon Dec 19, 2005 11:21 AM
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Boy you CLC boys play rough. On the contrary I believe Mathison has established the fact that Luther taught double predestination. But as others has so succinctly put it you deny the scriptures for the sake of your Smalcald Articles which are in error.

But I have had enough playing word games with you Speratus I will leave you with this: Why are you here?


Peter

If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself. Augustine of Hippo
Peter #29692 Mon Dec 19, 2005 11:08 PM
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I am here to learn. I am not CLC. I am tough on WELS (actually the WELS Q&A guy) because a poor answer is given to a serious question.

WELS Q&A brands Luther a false, erratic, teacher. However, no serious attempt is made to show from scripture how any of his writings are in error. Instead, excuses are offered up for his presumed false doctrine (e.g., early in career, dependent on Augustine, didn't anticipte Calvin and Beza, etc.).

But there is no excuse for teaching false doctrine. If WELS Q&A believes Luther teaches a doctrine of double predestination contrary to scripture, whether consistently or inconsistently, it should explain his errors and condemn his writings (i.e., Bondage of the Will, Lecture on Romans).

Pilgrim #29693 Mon Jun 12, 2006 6:28 PM
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Kalled2Preach said:
I will readily acknowledge that God has predestined everyone to either go to heaven or hell, my only question is, how does debating this issue help with the spreading of the gospel? What about the big words? . . .
[Linked Image] Why are you denigrating the discussion of theology on a THEOLOGY FORUM? And what do such discussions have to do with the irrelevant topic of bringing the Gospel to unbelievers? Start a new thread if you are wanting to discuss your concerns, e.g., what should be the content of the Gospel, etc.

What is relevant and one of the purposes of this Board is summed up nicely by the writer of Hebrews <------- is that too big of a word to use? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/giggle.gif" alt="" />

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Hebrews 5:11-14 (ASV) "Of whom we have many things to say, and hard of interpretation, seeing ye are become dull of hearing. For when by reason of the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need again that some one teach you the rudiments of the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of solid food. For every one that partaketh of milk is without experience of the word of righteousness; for he is a babe. But solid food is for fullgrown men, [even] those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern good and evil."
Anyone desirous of wanting to bring the Good News to sinners had better be skilled in the Scriptures. (2Tim 2:15) And further, that person had better be 100% positive that what he/she is speaking about is the true Gospel and not some dumbed down version that is nothing more than "another gospel". (Gal 1:7, 9)

What is the true gospel pilgrim ?

In His grace,

beloved57 #29694 Mon Jun 12, 2006 6:46 PM
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beloved57 said:
What is the true gospel pilgrim ?
See here AGAIN: A Gospel Summary

And why are you hijacking this thread with your hobby horse views?

And please, learn how to use the "quote" feature here so that we can distinguish the actual quoted text from your own comments. Also, only include that which is relevant in the quote box. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rolleyes2.gif" alt="" />


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Pilgrim #29695 Mon Jun 12, 2006 6:57 PM
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will you teach me how to use the quote device ? I asked you before did I not? I will comment later on the gospel summary you presented.

beloved57 #29696 Mon Jun 12, 2006 7:08 PM
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A quote box is created using the following code setup: [quote]text[/quote] The beginning tag is a: [quote] The desired text is next, The ending tag is a: [/quote] Notice the "/" trailing slash which most all closing tags must have. And no, you have never asked me about using the "quote" feature here. You can also find information about all the various UBBT Code tags in the [url=https://www.the-highway.com/forum/faq.php?Cat=0]FAQ section[/url]. Also, there is the "Advanced UBBT Code" box located to the right of the "Graemlins" box below the text box; see the last item in the right column.


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beloved57 #29697 Mon Jun 12, 2006 7:14 PM
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beloved57 said:
will you teach me how to use the quote device ? I asked you before did I not? I will comment later on the gospel summary you presented.
While you are learning this feature of the board, I would HIGHLY suggest you become reacquainted with the Guidelines For the Forums. Should you have ANY questions please feel free to PM me or any of the mods or admins.


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William #29698 Thu Jun 15, 2006 2:25 PM
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Question is open to anyone.

Would it be correct to say that regardless of the negative or positive views both the Infra and Supra positions agree that Election and Reprobation proceed out of God’s eternal good pleasure and agree that anything else is Arminianism.


If by acknowledging that it was by Gods good pleasure that sin was created Rev 4:11 "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things(including sin), and for thy pleasure they are and were created." Which view teaches that the fall of adam was according to Gods good pleasure ? Or may I ask, is it scriptural to believe that adams fall and sin entering into the world ,was according to Gods good pleasure ? I believe that sin entering into the world was decreed by God and was for his Good pleasure and for His Glory ! IMO , to believe that sin is anything other than Gods creation and For his purpose is arminian thinking !

beloved57 #29699 Thu Jun 15, 2006 3:50 PM
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beloved57 said:
IMO , to believe that sin is anything other than Gods creation and For his purpose is arminian thinking !
It is a far different thing to hold that "sin is . . . God's creation" than it is to hold that God decreed that sin should happen and providentially bring it to pass. God is NOT the "Author of sin"..... created beings, both angelic and human are the authors of sin and responsible for it. All the historic Reformed Confessions and Catechisms are very clear on this matter in stating that "God is not the author of sin", albeit He decreed that sin should come into the realm of the angelic host and all mankind.

In His grace,


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