The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum I don't want to annoy anyone but...

You'll probably groan when you read this. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/sigh.gif" alt="" /> It seems that I am always asking questions here. And this one is a particularly 'touchy' question. But I'm going to start a thread anyway- I'll delete it if anyone wants me to. Mainly because if I don't, my elder will go stark raving mad. I think he has even started avoiding me somewhat. Every time I go up to him and ask to talk about this issue again I can hear him inwardly groan. "She wants to talk about that again!?! I thought we resolved that last time!" When I have a point of theology to resolve I just can't NOT resolve it. I shall have to work on patience.

Anyway, why do we say that Arminians can be saved though they believe in a works salvation? My elder keeps telling me that one can trust Jesus in the heart even if one does not intellectually understand some things. Politely- huh? Surely there is a bare minimum- namely that we trust Jesus' death alone.....and Arminians would say that his death is not enough...'cause he died for everyone....and that its our believing that makes up the gap. How could ANY Christian say that? Perhaps I'm biased because when I was an Arminian I was trusting my 'believing'. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/sigh.gif" alt="" />

It's wrong to say someone believes something they determinedly say they don't. So why should we say that an Arminian believes that its Jesus' death alone that saves when they say that it is not enough to save? Whenever I try and ask someone at my church this they all act as if I am determined to find as many people as possible who are NOT saved. That is not the truth. I just know that whoever doesn't believe is not saved....and I just can't see how one could be an Arminian and believe at the same time. I would be extremely happy to be proved wrong! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rantoff.gif" alt="" />
Anna

Respectfully your pastor is right. God saves a person's heart regardless of what their minds may think. One does not need to be an expert in Pauline theology to be saved. Every Christian -- without exception -- has errant views. If doctrinal perfection was the standard for salvation none would be saved -- (compare the 7 churches in Revelation. Look at their doctrine and yet they are called the church -- saved and unsaved alike among them). Don't forget that Paul's letters were written to "correct errant " views in the church -- thus these people were Christians (at least some of them) before reading the letters. Christan's may embrace heresy and still be saved.

IMO, it's not all that fruitful to speculate about the salvation of others. The fact is that many Arminians don't even understand the Scripture enough as yet, to know that they are heretics.

What we do know is that the thief on the cross was saved by simply exercising his (mustard seed) grain of faith with his words and belief that Jesus was innocent and that he was guilty. By grace, the Spirit (Sola Fide) and the Word of God removed the mountains of his sin.

Still, it should be noted that in no way did the thief claim, as the Arminians do, that God was acting and was indebted to him because of his own exercise of "free will".

Thus, "arminianism" is a very dangerous denial of Scripture truth and Christian soteriology and should be reproved by all believing Christians whenever so confronted.

So,- the problem and focus is not whether God may save certain errant or heretical individuals or not, but our being knowlegeably obedient to the truth of Scripture.

Denny

Romans 3:22-24

Anna,

Here are a few of my thoughts on this subject:

1) At face value, what your Pastor said is correct. However, without judging him since I don't know him nor anything about him, usually when people make a statement like that, the extent to which they apply it is incorrect. "Believing on Jesus" is a very pregnant phrase and it excludes the simple recitation of the words, which is what 90% of so-called churches today are teaching/preaching. This is historically known as "Sandemanianism", aka: "Easy Believism", which is applicable to ALL theological systems, whether Arminian, semi-Pelagian, or Calvinist.

2) Yes, it is possible and definitely exists this bifurcation of the head and heart. In fact, I would say we are ALL guilty of possessing this phenomena. Even the Apostle Paul confessed that his life exemplified this strangeness, cf. Romans 7. What is important is in regard to what the inconsistency pertains to..... justification or sanctification. If the former, then the issue of salvation is at stake. If the latter, then salvation is not at stake.

3) Picking up on #2, and this is my firm belief: IF <------ an Arminian/semi-Pelagian (it makes no matter if this is consciously known or not) truly believes in their heart what they profess with their mouth (theologically), then there is little reason to believe that they are regenerate. However, it is possible that a person does not truly believe what they profess. And this sword cuts both ways, e.g., a person can have all their theological ducks in a row and yet be unregenerate and contrariwise, a person to some extent can profess bad theology but be regenerate and possess saving faith. The difficulty comes when someone tries to discern the truth of where another person is spiritually; dead or alive. There is no fool-proof, infallible method of doing this, yet the Church is called to make that judgment. Individual believers may not officially pronounce a judgment, but they are to be discerning and they are called to be "fruit inspectors". <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

The conundrum can be somewhat resolved through communication and interaction with others. And to this end I came up with a simple tool as an aid found here: Do You REALLY Believe that Salvation is by Grace Alone?. Again, I cannot stress enough that this is just a tool; a fallible tool to be sure, but one which I have found to be quite effective to open the minds of those I have had the opportunity to speak with about God's sovereign grace in salvation (Sola Gratia). The ONLY sure thing is that if the Holy Spirit works in the mind and heart of an individual, whatever He does will effect the change that was purposed for that person at that time. (1Cor 3:7, 8; Isa 55:10, 11) All we can do is to proclaim and explain the truth of God. And in fact, that is all we are called to do; contend for the faith once delivered unto the saints.

What I personally believe is that the vast majority of professing Christians throughout the world are yet dead in sins and are enemies of God despite the fact that they profess to believe in Jesus Christ. One of the most needy mission fields, IMHO, is the modern church, for rarely will one hear the true gospel of salvation by grace, through faith in Christ alone preached and/ or taught.

In His grace,

Anna

I agree wholeheartedly agree with what the other posters have said about this.
I want to tell you however, that when I had similar questions years ago, I came across people that not only disagreed with that view, but said anyone who actually believes it, are actually still dead in their sins.

I mention this not to confuse you, but to warn you that there are wolves in sheeps clothing out there.
What these people actually believe when it comes right down to it, is salvation by doctrine. Not salvation by grace alone through Christ alone.

Tom

I actually blogged about the very thing Tom is writing about - salvation by dogma. Read my entry here.

-Robin

Robin,

Your blog entry makes some salient and good points. However, what is also true is that rarely does a true believer result from the hearing of a false gospel, which is what is being preached and taught in the overwhelming majority of churches and by all those little "soul winners" that run around handing out quip little tracts, which state, "God loves you!". That the sovereign God can save whoever He chooses by whatever means He chooses is not in dispute. What is relevant is whether or not He typically does choose to use a false gospel to call the elect to faith.

I say, "No! Although the Spirit can call any dead sinner by any means after regenerating them and therefore consequently they will infallibly/irresistibly flee to Christ and believe upon Him unto justification, it is typically through the true Gospel which He works in conjunction with and not through a false gospel. A counterfeit "plate" will and can only produce a counterfeit bill. That God can change that is not something which should concern us and especially it is not something we should depend upon. Miracles are the UNusual and not the usual; A-typical and not typical, SUPER-natural and not natural (normal). To use another example, Is it possible for someone to drink poison and live? Yes, but typically, death ensues from drinking deadly poison. That one could live is highly unlikely although possible. So the bottom line is, are you willing to believe that YOU would be the exception rather than the rule and drink that poison? . . . And just so no one gets the wrong idea... preaching the pure Gospel of Christ is no guarantee that everyone who hears it will be genuinely converted. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rolleyes2.gif" alt="" /> Salvation is of the Lord; all of grace. The issue is whether or not those who have responded to a false message about salvation which names the name of Christ are typically regenerate and thus possess a true living faith.

So as I stated in one of my previous replies, I do believe that the overwhelming majority of those who profess to be "born again Christians" are actually unregenerate and are thus still dead in sins and under the wrath and judgment of God. Those of us who have been privileged by grace to know the truth of the Gospel both in our own experience and intellectually should be motivated to bring that message to ALL, especially those who "hold to a form of godliness but lack/deny the power thereof".

In His grace,

Respectfully your pastor is right. God saves a person's heart regardless of what their minds may think. One does not need to be an expert in Pauline theology to be saved. Every Christian -- without exception -- has errant views. If doctrinal perfection was the standard for salvation none would be saved -- (compare the 7 churches in Revelation. Look at their doctrine and yet they are called the church -- saved and unsaved alike among them). Don't forget that Paul's letters were written to "correct errant " views in the church -- thus these people were Christians (at least some of them) before reading the letters. Christan's may embrace heresy and still be saved. [b]My post was mainly written out of frustration that no one (including my elder) seems to want to explain believing in the heart but not with the mind. I know perfect theology is not a standard we have to meet. What I mean is…how wrong can someone be ‘in the head’ without their head affecting their heart?[/b] Adopted said: IMO, it's not all that fruitful to speculate about the salvation of others. The fact is that many Arminians don't even understand the Scripture enough as yet, to know that they are heretics. [b]I’m not talking about the ones who don’t know what they are talking about. And I don’t want to go around ‘sending people to hell’ or speculating about the salvation of others.[/b] What we do know is that the thief on the cross was saved by simply exercising his (mustard seed) grain of faith with his words and belief that Jesus was innocent and that he was guilty. By grace, the Spirit (Sola Fide) and the Word of God removed the mountains of his sin. Still, it should be noted that in no way did the thief claim, as the Arminians do, that God was acting and was indebted to him because of his own exercise of "free will". Thus, "arminianism" is a very dangerous denial of Scripture truth and Christian soteriology and should be reproved by all believing Christians whenever so confronted. So,- the problem and focus is not whether God may save certain errant or heretical individuals or not, but our being knowlegeably obedient to the truth of Scripture. [b]Agree.[/b] Pilgrim said: Anna, Here are a few of my thoughts on this subject: 1) At face value, what your Pastor said is correct. However, without judging him since I don't know him nor anything about him, usually when people make a statement like that, the extent to which they apply it is incorrect. "Believing on Jesus" is a very pregnant phrase and it excludes the simple recitation of the words, which is what 90% of so-called churches today are teaching/preaching. This is historically known as "Sandemanianism", aka: "Easy Believism", which is applicable to ALL theological systems, whether Arminian, semi-Pelagian, or Calvinist. [b]I sometimes think that he leans that way. But not more than leaning.[/b] 2) Yes, it is possible and definitely exists this bifurcation of the head and heart. In fact, I would say we are ALL guilty of possessing this phenomena. Even the Apostle Paul confessed that his life exemplified this strangeness, cf. Romans 7. What is important is in regard to what the inconsistency pertains to..... justification or sanctification. If the former, then the issue of salvation is at stake. If the latter, then salvation is not at stake. 3) Picking up on #2, and this is my firm belief: IF <------ an Arminian/semi-Pelagian (it makes no matter if this is consciously known or not) truly believes in their heart what they profess with their mouth (theologically), then there is little reason to believe that they are regenerate. However, it is possible that a person does not truly believe what they profess. And this sword cuts both ways, e.g., a person can have all their theological ducks in a row and yet be unregenerate and contrariwise, a person to some extent can profess bad theology but be regenerate and possess saving faith. The difficulty comes when someone tries to discern the truth of where another person is spiritually; dead or alive. There is no fool-proof, infallible method of doing this, yet the Church is called to make that judgment. Individual believers may not officially pronounce a judgment, but they are to be discerning and they are called to be "fruit inspectors". [b]That *sort of* explains what I want to know.[/b] Tom said: Anna I agree wholeheartedly agree with what the other posters have said about this. I want to tell you however, that when I had similar questions years ago, I came across people that not only disagreed with that view, but said anyone who actually believes it, are actually still dead in their sins. I mention this not to confuse you, but to warn you that there are wolves in sheeps clothing out there. What these people actually believe when it comes right down to it, is salvation by doctrine. Not salvation by grace alone through Christ alone. [b]I don’t know that they believe in salvation by doctrine (though I’m sure some do), they just don’t acknowledge the difference between head and heart. The very reason I posted this was to have some more explanation about head vs. heart.[/b] Robin said: I actually blogged about the very thing Tom is writing about - salvation by dogma. Read my entry here. -Robin [b]Thanks I shall.[/b] Pilgrim said: So as I stated in one of my previous replies, I do believe that the overwhelming majority of those who profess to be "born again Christians" are actually unregenerate and are thus still dead in sins and under the wrath and judgment of God. Those of us who have been privileged by grace to know the truth of the Gospel both in our own experience and intellectually should be motivated to bring that message to ALL, especially those who "hold to a form of godliness but lack/deny the power thereof". [b]That is what I was like about 3 years ago. The temptation is now to ‘swing to an extreme’ and think that no-one holding to Arminianism can be saved. Because I myself didn’t believe in either head or heart, I wanted someone to tell me more about head vs. heart. I find it difficult to believe but I suppose all things are possible with our God. My acquaintance with various Arminians tends to back this up.[/b] [b]Anna[/b]

Anna,

Perhaps one or more of the following might help answer your question(s):

- There are Only Two Religions in the Whole World, by Ernest Reisinger

- The Bible's Answer to the Question: What is a Christian?, by Wayne Mack

- Modern Evangelism Unmasked, by W.F. Bell

- Accepting Christ, by I.C. Herendeen

<hr>

1) "Religion on earth finds its highest expression in the act of prayer. But Calvinism in the Christian Church is simply that tendency which makes a man assume the same attitude toward God in his profession and life which he exhibits in prayer. There is no Christian, be he Lutheran or Baptist, Methodist or Greek, whose prayer is not thoroughly Calvinistic; no child of God, to whatever Church organization he may belong, but in his prayer he gives glory to God above and renders thanks to his Father in heaven for all the grace working in him, and acknowledges that the eternal love of God alone has, in the face of his resistance, drawn him out of darkness into light. On his knees before God everyone that has been saved will recognize the sole efficiency of the Holy Spirit in every good work performed, and will acknowledge that without the atoning grace of Him who is rich in mercies, he would not exist for a moment, but would sink away in guilt and sin. In a word, whoever truly prays ascribes nothing to his own will or power except the sin that condemns him before God, and knows of nothing that could endure the judgment of God except it be wrought in him by divine love. But whilst all other tendencies in the Church preserve this attitude as long as the prayer lasts, to lose themselves in radically different conceptions as soon as the Amen has been pronounced, the Calvinist adheres to the truth of his prayer, in his confession, in his theology, in his life, and the Amen that has closed his petition re-echoes in the depth of his consciousness and throughout the whole of his existence."
by Dr. Abraham Kuyper, 1891

2) "You have heard a great many Arminian sermons, I dare say; but you never heard an Arminian prayer - for the saints in prayer appear as one in word, and deed and mind. An Arminian on his knees would pray desperately like a Calvinist. He cannot pray about free will: there is no room for it. Fancy him praying, 'Lord, I thank thee I am not like those poor presumptuous Calvinists. Lord, I was born with a glorious free-will; I was born with power by which I can turn to thee of myself; I have improved my grace. If everybody had done the same with their grace that I have, they might all have been saved. Lord, I know thou dost not make us willing if we are not willing ourselves. Thou givest grace to everybody; some do not improve it, but I do. There are many that will go to hell as much bought with the blood of Christ as I was; they had as much of the Holy Ghost given to them; they had as good a chance, and were as much blessed as I am. It was not thy grace that made us to differ; I know it did a great deal, still I turned the point; I made use of what was given me, and others did not - that is the difference between me and them.' . . . Do I hear one Christian man saying, 'I sought Jesus before he sought me; I went to the Spirit, and the Spirit did not come to me?' No, beloved; we are obliged, each one of us, to put our hands to our hearts, and say:

'Grace taught my soul to pray,
And made my eyes o'erflow;
'Twas grace that kept me to this day,
And will not let me go."

by Rev. Charles H. Spurgeon, on December 2, 1855

<hr>

In His grace,