The Highway Forums General Discussion Open Forum Charismatic Brothers and Sisters

I just wanted to share a little about what's happened in my life recently. I have a good brother who attends Sovereign Grace church here in Chesapeake Virginia. Sovereign Grace is a pretty big church that has a contemporary style service. Their sanctuary is in an auditorium and their praise band and singers jump up and down and it's a very energetic, happy clappy style of service. Almost like being at a contemporary Christian concert. People in the congregation are also jumping up and down and of course holding their hands up and clapping. Sovereign Grace's main spokesperson and theologian is Wayne Grudem and has developed a doctrinal style that follows Grudems attempt to merge reformed soteriology with charismatic/vinyard beliefs.

Sovereign Grace also holds Charles Spurgeon up on a very high pedestal. They also believe in believers baptism.

They have a very strong focus on family and youth and have two very big ministries that reflect this. Their youth ministry and their growth group or small group ministry.

They also have a pretty big book store in the church that has books for sale by Sproul, Packer, Schaeffer, Hodge, Vos, Pratt, Edwards and so on. So they do have a pretty big focus on reformed theology. Their sermons are expository for the most part.

So, it is a pretty edifying church in my opinion. But they still incorporate the Charismatic element.

So with saying all of this, my friend who introduced me to the reformed faith, himself has been in the Vineyard church for a very long time. So it makes sense to me that he would be drawn to this church. But we still communicate on a regular basis, we are very good friends. But there is a distinct line between us and that is that I'm a cessationist and he is a charismatic. So we have both just agreed to disagree on this issue. That doesn't mean that we can't continue to grow in our faith with each other, it just means that we don't see eye to eye on certain doctrinal issues. But after long discussions on this point, it has become clear to me that people are different and they are going to naturally be drawn to a style of doctrinal beliefs. As I have been recently studying early American history I discovered that there was a noticeable split between the protestant church that I hadn't realized. That of the Quakers and the Puritans. The Quakers being "spiritualists" and more charismatic and the Puritans being more focused on doctrine and the Word.

I work in a SB Christian bookstore, Lifeway, and there are a couple of young black girls who are pastors daughters that I regard as being very well grounded in their faith. It has been very pleasant to work with them and they continue to empress me with their bible knowledge and their faith. But they are both charismatic and both claim to have the gift of tongues. So at the end of the day, I have to admit that there seems to be those who are going to be naturally drawn to a more charismatic spirituality and those who are not. It has become apparent to both me and my good friend that we are not going to change each others minds. He is going to continue to be charismatic and I am going to continue to be a cessationist. We have both explored this aspect of our faith, we've read scripture, we've read commentaries and so on and we both come to different conclusions.

Y.C.I.C,

Dave.

"Naturally drawn," perhaps, Dave, but what sort of nature is drawing them? I would say it's not the new nature that draws them to charismatic "style" or theology. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/nope.gif" alt="" />

I learned of Sovereign Grace Ministries through another forum and when I visited their website I read:

"We describe our doctrine as being essentially Reformed, yet including a commitment to charismatic practice as biblically defined."

I thought to myself, Now that's interesting. I am not aware of any other charismatic Reformed group in existence...although I'm sure there are others out there. Seems to me that the theologically Reformed folk would want the genuine article and not stay around, and the charismatic folk would not want the restraints placed on their practice by Reformed theology. So neither group would be content and eventually your church would empty out. But somehow these people are pulling it off...and growing.

I think you are following the right path by not making the charismatic issue a point of division with your friend. Like you, I don't agree with charismatic theology and practice, but most charismatics I know hold to essential Christian doctrine if not Refomred tradition and theology. I consider them brethren in Christ but I don't really want to go to church with them.

...interesting discussion. Can anyone tell me how old, historically, the cessasionist view is?

I've just always wondered whether or not the cessasionist view came along due to the abuses and excesses of the early pentecostal/charismatic movement or has this been a view held by the early church?

Also, for those out there, like myself, who might consider themselves ex-charismatics; what do you think about this? I guess I've never held to or looked in depth into the cessasionist view. I'm familiar with its basic teachings but I just don't see it...and I know the response I'm gonna get now but I don't.

In saying that, I will most likely NEVER attend a charismatic church again because of the blatant disregard for God's word (they take for granted the fact that there is/was an orderly way the gifts should function), and I wonder if there will ever be a time when they will. I would run like the wind if anyone ever suggested that there s more to be added to God's word by way of prophecy etc. . However, could the sign gifts not be used for the edification of the saints?

...Ok, I'm bracing myself <insert face covering, flinching smiley here>

Not to worry, TJ! This is a good place to ask questions like that! No need to flinch and run!

As you might have expected <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/giggle.gif" alt="" /> go here: The Charismatic Movement.

Ex-Pentecostal here, now cessationist! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />

I am also an ex-charismatic/penticostal. I am definately a cessationist. Thanks for the info on Grudem. I attend his former home church.The pastor is reformed Baptist(SBC). The church is contempory in music(blended),and very reserved(not Charismatic type of worship)or I would be gone.

The term "Reformed Charismatic" is an oxymoron, though there appears to be a growing number of people who call themselves "Reformed Charismatics." There are plenty of articles right here on the Highway that address cessation and charismatic issues. I have a forum for ex-charismatics and ex-Pentecostals that directs people here to the Highway as well called ExCharisma.

On occassion we've dealt with so-called "Reformed" Charismatics in that forum also. Most of the folks that are attracted to Charismatic churches are drawn by the style and informality of their liturgy (or the appearance of no liturgy at all) and the apparent depth and emotional appeal of Charismatic worship. But all too often, Charismatic "worship" becomes a way of saying "I love you Lord" without doing what He has commanded. Charismatic worship makes you feel like you have really worshipped God in a more genuine way than ever before. But I believe that in God's way of worship, the absolute high point of any church service is the sermon, not the music; and there is far greater fulfillment in applying His word all week long than in "recharging your batteries" in a Charismatic worship service.

I also have found that Charismatics are unlikely to even be willing to question their beliefs until those beliefs have failed them multiple times. Even when "giving to get" made a friend of mine homeless, he still would not give up on his "seed-faith" dogma until it happened multiple times. I refused to quit believing in "deliverance ministry" until having multiple "demons expelled" multiple times failed to supply the promised rest and peace.

Finding and embracing the doctrines of grace, though, did for me all at once what twenty years of "charismania" could not do. Absolutely every aspect of my life turned around for the better once I abandoned false hope in nonexistent "gifts" and leaned wholly on God as revealed in His written, infallible, and unchanging Word. My health improved. My marriage improved (tremendously!). My finances turned around. I became a better employee, better student, better husband and father, a better citizen, a better church member and leader. My worship both in private and in the assembly is richer and deeper than was ever possible for me in all my years as a Charismatic. But alas, for most Charismatics, it takes multiple disastrous failures and many years of reality-defying denial before they are finally willing to even question their beliefs. Such conditioning goes against what the Reformers themselves urged: "Reformed, but always reforming.

Semper Reformada,
Robin

I know it is not exactly what you wrote about, but I attended a contemporary service the other day with a family member (not Charismatic). It was the first time I have been to a non-traditional service in about six years. I went because of the weather.

Anyway, I cannot for the life of me figure out the attraction of a contemporary service. I just don't get it. I guess I'm just a snob. It all just seems too superficial to me to capture only one range of emotions and pump up everyone's emotions. I bet they think Presbyterians and Reformed Baptists are just dead, dead as a door nail.