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Interpretation of Scripture and "the gifts" #38542
Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:42 PM
Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:42 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 10
AZ, USA
EricM Offline OP
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EricM  Offline OP
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I see there is a part of the forum allotted for those who are "ex" charismatics. Unfortunately all of the spiritual gifts are designated as "charimata"
I've been fascinated over the past 30 years or so with the arguments for cessation of certain Charismatic gifts. They almost always seem to deal with a portion of the subject as opposed to the whole of the subject.
When Paul wrote about his prayer language it is obvious from context that he recognized 2 distinct types of utterance gifts. One to be practiced in private between the believer and God and one that had a public purpose, possibly the translation of foreign language or speaking in a foreign language, both having been not from learning, for the edification of the congregation. As to prophesy I have not seen anyone entertain the possibility that there could be prophesy for the Universal Church (Christendom) which comes from disciples which would be accepted in a very restricted sense, ie Scripture, whereas the commonly reffered to "charismatic gift of prophesy" might be for the edification and guidance of the local congregation and not seen as binding upon the Whole of Christendom as Scripture. Such as whether it was truly the Lord's will to purchase that new property, etc. Obviously all such prophesy would need to be tested against the principles of Scripture (anyone prohesying that you should lie or steal would be a FALSE prophet and their message should not be accepted). I'm leery about any exegetical machinations that result in scripture being interpreted to mean something that it does not clearly state somewhere itself. I spent almost two decades in formal theological study and have seen some theologians, a few of them famous, wrench scripture around so as to satisfy the proclivities of whatever the institution was with which they might be associated.
If someone is truly healed by a person recognized by elders in a Christian bible believing church I'm not gonna be the guy to tell them they're not really healed and I wouldn't, nor should any of you, attribute that work of the Holy Spirit to "OTHER" than God, things could get really "warm" for you, if you know what I mean.
By the way I got no dog in this hunt. I haven't been blessed with any of those gifts and I'm every bit as reformed, maybe even a bit moreso, than any theologian of whom you can think.
Now do I believe there are problems with wrong or over emphases in the charismatic movement. Sure I do, Just as almost any part of Christendom that identifies itself with a narrow portion of the teachings of scripture can be tempted to have. But let's not continue to chuck babies out with the bathwater at every given opportunity.


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Re: Interpretation of Scripture and "the gifts" [Re: EricM] #38543
Fri Dec 14, 2007 9:14 AM
Fri Dec 14, 2007 9:14 AM
Joined: Jan 2002
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Florida
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Robin Offline
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Robin  Offline
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Clearly, there are ministry gifts (offices, like Pastor, administrator, helps, etc) which have not ceased; and there are sign gifts and revelation gifts, which have ceased because the things they signified (the authority of the Apostles, the inclusion of Gentile believers in the Covenant, judgement upon the generation of unbelieving Jews who betrayed and murdered God's Son) have come to pass, and the message of the Apostles authenticated by signs. Those gifts which have served their purpose have ceased now that their purpose has been served.

"Throwing the baby out with the bathwater" is an expression all too often used to justify assigning a wholly different purpose to sign-gifts than the single purpose they served (in both Testaments) before the close of the Canon.

Re: Interpretation of Scripture and "the gifts" [Re: EricM] #38544
Sun Dec 16, 2007 7:41 AM
Sun Dec 16, 2007 7:41 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 27
Boardman,Ohio
Protestant Laird Offline
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Protestant Laird  Offline
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Boardman,Ohio
Quote

I've been fascinated over the past 30 years or so with the arguments for cessation of certain Charismatic gifts.


The very phraseology "cessation of certain Charismatic gifts" is one the Charismatics love to entertain.Such verbiage is dangerous because of the heretical supposition it entertains.
First off,would a "cessation" of a certain gift delineate some moral lapse on the part of its recipient.If that were the case,would that not imply HIS gifts to be conditional on the Father's observation of the behavior of man?
THAT WOULD IMPLY GOD LEARNED!!!!
This is one of the many ecclesiological vignettes in the Charismatic movement that is a de facto abridgment of the belief in the omniscience of God.
As for those who have been delivered from that abyss-Praise God!!!!! It's nothing more than another mechanism of cultural/partisan hegemony used by the radical left that has,over the decades,systematically weakened the Protestant faith by undermining the authority of God's word;hence the belief in HIS omnipotence and omniscience.


Submitted in the name of Him which hath redeemed the elect, Eric Wells,Protestant Laird of Glencairn
Re: Interpretation of Scripture and "the gifts" [Re: Protestant Laird] #38545
Sat Feb 09, 2008 7:42 PM
Sat Feb 09, 2008 7:42 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 30
Round Lake Beach, Ill. 60073
BibleRon Offline
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BibleRon  Offline
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A hearty AMEN to robin. Also a AMEN to "prot" ,I think. As Kenneth Hagin use to say"the proof is in the pudding". It doesn't take much looking at KH or the rest of the "movement "to tell that the miraculous gifts have ceased and Gods Soverinty over the gifts and everything else still reigns.


Protected by the power of God Through Faith........1Peter1:5
Re: Interpretation of Scripture and "the gifts" [Re: BibleRon] #41529
Sun Feb 15, 2009 3:58 PM
Sun Feb 15, 2009 3:58 PM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 13
Peterborough, UK
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Nick Mudge Offline
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Nick Mudge  Offline
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Quote:-

Those gifts which have served their purpose have ceased now that their purpose has been served.

Eph 4:11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,
Eph 4:12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;
Eph 4:13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.
Eph 4:14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;
Eph 4:15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,
Eph 4:16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.

Did I miss the point at which the church reached the fulness of the stature of Christ? Can someone point me to when this happened in church history?

If it hasn't happened to date then the gifts and ministries the ascended Christ gave to men must continue and to create arbitrary distinction between some as valid for today, simply isn't supported from this passage or any other I am aware of.


Nick Mudge


Rom 8:32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?
Re: Interpretation of Scripture and "the gifts" [Re: Nick Mudge] #41531
Sun Feb 15, 2009 4:34 PM
Sun Feb 15, 2009 4:34 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,540
NH, USA
Pilgrim Offline

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Pilgrim  Offline

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Hi and Welcome to the Board! hello

Actually, the "ExCharisma" forum, according to the very first post, is for EX charismatics ministering particularly to their unique needs. You are obviously not "EX" and thus you should really post such queries for discussion in the Theology forum. Let me encourage you to do just that. wink

And while you are thinking over whether or not you really want to debate "soft cessationism", in case you didn't notice there is an entire section on The Highway among its 1600+ books, articles, sermons, etc., dedicated to The Charismatic Movement. ENJOY!

Thanks!


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simul iustus et peccator

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Re: Interpretation of Scripture and "the gifts" [Re: Nick Mudge] #41546
Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:17 AM
Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:17 AM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 983
Florida
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Robin Offline
The Boy Wonder
Robin  Offline
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Florida
You listed offices rather than manifestations in your question. We surely do have pastors and teachers and helpers and administrators, etc in the Church to this day, but not the signs that were specifically intended for a particular generation, which marked the close of the Old covenant and commencement of the New. The purpose of the sign gifts was very specific and very different from the continuing purpose of the offices listed in Ephesians 4.

But again as Pilgrim has requested, unless you are an ex-Charismatic "in recovery," post your questions in the Theology forum. And again, welcome to the Highway!


Re: Interpretation of Scripture and "the gifts" [Re: Robin] #41583
Tue Feb 17, 2009 2:56 PM
Tue Feb 17, 2009 2:56 PM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 13
Peterborough, UK
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Nick Mudge Offline
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Nick Mudge  Offline
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Peterborough, UK
Sorry for the breach of protocol. I'm just used to a slightly freer posting environment I guess. Thanks for the link but it doesn't provide much room for debate <lol>


Nick Mudge


Rom 8:32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?
Re: Interpretation of Scripture and "the gifts" [Re: Nick Mudge] #41589
Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:41 PM
Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:41 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 983
Florida
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Robin Offline
The Boy Wonder
Robin  Offline
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Florida
Debate is okay! And always useful and helpful and edifying if it's done right. And the mods here make sure that it's done right (most of the time, laugh). Just use the theology forum instead of the ExCharisma forum.


Re: Interpretation of Scripture and "the gifts" [Re: Robin] #46843
Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:41 PM
Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:41 PM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 4
Pacific NW
Mickel Offline
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Mickel  Offline
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I think God is in the revealing business (so to speak). He loves to show himself to those who seek him with their whole heart. He rewards us with himself when we diligently seek him. So what does that actually mean? Many things but in a nutshell he reveals the length breadth and depth of scripture(in increments). He shows us things not uncommon to all men that are revealed in the scriptures and he will gladly use our individual personal circumstances as types to teach us. There's nothing new under the Sun and what's taught in scripture still happens over and over again in personal lives everywhere. God reveals scripture to us through everything around us..and in a prophetic way with two or more witnesses.

Last edited by Mickel; Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:51 PM.
Re: Interpretation of Scripture and "the gifts" [Re: Mickel] #46996
Thu Jul 14, 2011 4:50 AM
Thu Jul 14, 2011 4:50 AM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,540
NH, USA
Pilgrim Offline

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Pilgrim  Offline

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NH, USA
Originally Posted by Mickel
There's nothing new under the Sun and what's taught in scripture still happens over and over again in personal lives everywhere. God reveals scripture to us through everything around us..and in a prophetic way with two or more witnesses.

I'm curious to know what you mean by the portion that is emphasized in your quote, specifically God reveals scripture. Does this mean, for example, you believe that inspired revelation from God continues in various forms through humans and/or through other created things; animate and inanimate? scratchchin


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simul iustus et peccator

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Re: Interpretation of Scripture and "the gifts" [Re: Pilgrim] #50044
Mon Sep 09, 2013 4:46 PM
Mon Sep 09, 2013 4:46 PM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 3
USA
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CaveBear Offline
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CaveBear  Offline
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USA
Maybe I can answer your question... I do not think Mickel is referring to new revelation at all. But looking back on my own life, God does indeed reveal Scripture to you through many events and even material possessions. That may sound strange, but I can clearly see the hand of God in my past, and how the Holy Spirit in me "recognized" the Truth in what I was looking at or experiencing. For example, in school I was to read "Jacob Have I Loved" by Katherine Paterson. I had not even read a single word in the Bible at that time, and I had no idea there was a "Jacob" in the Bible! Yet throughout the years I forgot the story of that book, yet the title stuck with me, as if seared into my mind. It was as if God was standing behind me whispering "Remember..."

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." (John 14:26)

And when I read this in the Bible:

"As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." (Romans 9:13)

... it was like "Hey! I remember that!".

So, I think that's what Mickel was referring to :-)


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