The Highway Forums General Discussion Open Forum Christmas Service at Lutheran Church

My family and I attended a Lutheran Church Christmas day mainly because my daughter's husband's parents attend there.
I really didn't know what to expect seeing I have never been to a Lutheran Church. However, I must regretfully say that I will not be attending one again.

Upon entering the Church I noticed a big wooden cross with Jesus on it. I immediately thought of a Roman Catholic Church.

During the service, the minister led the congregation to recite a forgiveness confession that was displayed on the over-head.
After this the minister said something to the effect of: "Based on your confession and on the authority as a minister of the Gospel, I proclaim that your sins are forgiven."

I had to restrain myself from leaving, mainly because I knew it would have caused a scene.

Is this typical of a Lutheran Church?

Tom

That sounds like a question for Pete.

I felt a disturbance in the force...

Since I don't know what synod the church belong to that Tom attended I can't say what is normal for that particular church. I have seen some of the liberal ELCA churches so chummy with the papists that you would find them exchanging pulpits.

Now forty-one years ago when I was going to the Lutheran Church there wasn't a crucifixion on the wall, nor did we hear the pastor pronounce absolution upon us. However time has dimmed my memories.

Here is a link to the LCMS explanation of the liturgy. LCMS Parts of the Liturgy Compare it to the CRCNA Service for Word and Sacrament. You can see in it they too have a confession and absolution section.

And just as a postscript Tom what exactly offended you most the crucifix or the public confession?

I have never been able to figure out what is the Lutheran belief system? For instance, how many points of TULIP do they ascribe. I have heard the first three only. It has been said that Lutherans cherish their contradictions. Is that mostly accurate?

Here's an interesting article: Double or Nothing: Martin Luther's Doctrine of Predestination.

Hi

Just got back from a little family holiday, without a computer.

Pete said:
This is just off the top of my head.
First, it reminded me of a Roman Catholic Church more than a Protestant Church.

Second, it breaks the second commandment that says:

As to the public confession and the absolution of sins by the minister.
A see no place in Scripture that gives a minister the authority to absolve sins and therefore he not only oversteps his authority, but gives false hope.
I believe these are very serious matters.

Pete

Other than what I have already told you about that Lutheran Church, I can tell you that they are members of the LCC.
Here is their web site. http://concordialive.ca/church

Tom

Just so you know Tom I'm intending to revisit this however I think I'll do it as a new topic.

Try Matthew 16:19, 18:18, and John 20:23.

Robin

I just noticed your post.
Though I have looked at those Scripture verses, I don't think that is quite what they are saying. However, I have grown to respect you and I thought rather than being closed minded to this, I thought I would ask you to exegete these verses, just in case I am missing something.

Also, I have a question not just for you. If these verses do give a minister the authority to absolve sins, are there Reformed Churches that practice this?
Although my experience might be limited in scope, I have never heard this teaching from a Protestant before. It would seem to me that if this is a biblical teaching, then by extension much of Protestantism is missing out on a major truth of Scripture.

Tom

Hi Tom,

I'm having an intense week of training away from home for a new job, so I don't have the time to properly exegete the verses I shared with you, but I do indeed believe that we have been given "the keys of the kingdom" and that the Church does indeed have authority to forgive and retain sins. You will find this in most of the great confessions of the majority of Reformed churches.

You'll find some wonderful study material right here at the-Highway to help you sort this out. Look under subjects such as "church discipline" and "the keys of the kingdom."

Tom, when you lead a person to faith in Christ, and he or she shares their confession of faith with you, do you not take delight in informing them that God has forgiven their sins? For me those are the sweetest, most wonderful words a human can utter: "Your sins are forgiven!" A Lutheran minister "pronouncing absolution" is not really any different from telling a newly-converted believer that his sins are forgiven.

Hope this helps a bit!

Tom,

With the hopes of dispelling any misunderstanding let me express what I believe is the biblical and confessional view of the Reformed churches historically.

1. An elder has no inherent nor delegated authority to actually remit/absolve sins, i.e., he has no ability nor authority to remove/forgive the sins of another nor even himself.
2. An elder does have the authority to state that confessed sins of a true believer are forgiven by God on the basis of the merits of the Lord Christ.
3. An elder, has the authority of Christ in regard to the 'keys of the kingdom' to pronounce that those who voice a valid profession of faith and whose lives are consistent with that profession, i.e., a true desire to live a life of holiness and exhibit such are part of the true Church. Those who do not voice a true profession of faith and/or whose lives have unrepentant sin have no citizenship in the Church. This would apply to those seeking entrance into the Church (regardless of which local church assembly is involved) and/or those who are already members of a local church. In the case of the latter, this would apply to disciplinary action, especially excommunication.
4. Universal proclamations of remission of sins is unwarranted. There MUST be the qualification mentioned with the pronouncement that this remission belongs to all who are truly in Christ and them alone. Unbelievers and false believers are exempt.
5. In short, an elder has no personal power nor authority to remit/absolve sins, but on the truth of the Gospel, he can express the teaching of the Gospel; in Christ God forgives all sins.

Not having been at the service you attended, it is impossible for me to make any judgment as to the legitimacy of what the elder did.

Pilgrim

I appreciate you trying to add clarity to this matter.

Does the following sound consistant with what you said?


To me this sounds like easy believism.

Tom

Tom did you perchance go to the URL I posted and read the statement there regarding the confession part of the liturgy? If not I suggest you do.