The Highway Forums General Discussion Open Forum RefomationForNewbies???

Does it violate the Second Commandment when a church puts up a cross and/or when an individual wears a cross?

I think it would be out of good taste; less than prudent at best and a violation of the 2nd Commandment at worst. This is not one I could be 100% dogmatic about, but I personally would not wear a cross and I probably would voice my dismay if a church I was a member of chose to display a cross.

My

Interesting. But a crucifix is out of the question ,yes?

That is definitely a big

No representations whatsoever, physical nor imagined, of any of the three persons of the Godhead nor of Jesus Christ are permitted. IF I am correct in understanding that the "crucifix" you are referring to is a cross with an alleged image of Christ attached to it, correct?... then a crucifix is absolutely out of the question.

Exactly. This was under discussion and no one even brought up the 2nd. Then I got to wondering what ya all though about a cross, turns out we're pretty close on this one, Im a little more positive regarding the cross.

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Im sure this has come up before so likely there is a standard response ?

Hitch,

1. I am assuming that the quote is taken from someone that is on some other forum or a person you are communicating with. Is that correct?

2. I am also assuming that whoever wrote the quoted portion takes exception to the historic Reformed interpretation and application of the 2nd Commandment. Would that be correct as well?

3. Assuming once again that #1 & #2 are correct, I'll give you my own response and not necessarily a "standard response".

1. God does not contradict Himself, thus whatever He commanded in Exodus 20:4,5 will be 100% consistent with everything that follows that pertains to that commandment. Thus there is no discrepancy between Ex. 20:4,5 and 25:22 or 26:1.
2. The second commandment forbids the making of ANY representation whatsoever, material or imaginary of any of the three persons of the Godhead including the incarnate Son of God Jesus the Christ. Secondly, it forbids the making of anything that is used as a means of worship of the one true Living God according to the imaginations of men. This is iterated in the second giving of the law in Deuteronomy 5:8,9. And the principal aspect of the law exemplified and explained in Deut 4:7-19. Let me make this understanding even more clear by the following:
   
   1. Notice the emphasis upon the written and spoken word of God:
   - Written:
   v. 8 … statutes, judgments, law;
   v. 9, 10 … teach them
   v. 13 … he wrote them
   - Spoken:
   v:10 … make them hear my words;
   v.12 ... the Lord spoke, you heard the voice of words, only you heard a voice
   v. 13 … he declared them, he commanded you to perform
   v. 14 … teach you
   v. 15 … spoke unto you
   
   2. Notice now the emphasis against visual representations of God:
   - v. 12 … but saw no similitude [form];
   - v. 15 … for you saw no manner [any kind] of similitude [form]
   - v. 16 …Lest you corrupt yourselves and make an image or some form of any figure, etc. and end up worshiping any of these things or worshiping God through these things.
   
   A few more examples can be seen here:
   Isaiah 40:18 and 25, 26: to what or whom will you compare God or with what representation?
   Isaiah 42:8: I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
   Isaiah 44:9-10: The futility of man-made ‘gods’
3. Having established what the 2nd Commandment forbids, let's take a quick look at the two passages quoted from Exodus:
   
   
   Quote

   Moreover you shall make the tabernacle with ten curtains woven of fine linen thread, and blue and purple and scarlet yarn; with artistic designs of cherubim you shall weave them. (Exodus 26:1)
   
   And there I will meet with you, and I will speak with you from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim which are on the ark of the Testimony, of all things which I will give you in commandment to the children of Israel. (Exodus 25:22)
   a. There is no mention, no not even the slightest hint that any man or group of men decided to fabricate anything that was made within the Tabernacle. They were all made upon the direct command of God. The 2nd Commandment forbids MEN to make any graven images or any likeness of God.
   
   b. There is nothing within the Tabernacle which was made for the sole purpose of serving as a means through which God was to be worshiped. God Himself declared that He would be personally present and speak with Moses "face to face". The presence of God and His direct communication was restricted to Moses and Moses alone.
   
   c. The CONTEXT of those two passages are not in regard to the corporate worship of God nor an example of individual worship of God. They are typological in that as God was to speak directly to Moses, as God's chosen servant of His people, God would speak directly to One who would come after Him as God's chosen Servant, the Leader, Deliverer, Guardian and Redeemer of His people; Jesus Christ (cf. Deut 18:15-18; Acts 3:22; 7:37).
   
   d. Thus, there is nothing in the two quoted passages which are relevant to interpreting Ex. 20:4,5 or Deut 5:8,9.

Cherubim are created beings. Nothing in the Lord's description of the imagery in the Tabernacle or Temple describes images representing God. Nor is there any instruction to genuflect nor bow down to any representation of heavenly beings given.

It's quite a stretch to take these images of cherubim and use them to nullify the Second Commandment IMO.

No, that cherubs are part of the creation does not matter, the Commandment speaks of anything in heaven etc,

or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above





Pilgrims 'a' nails it;


a. There is no mention, no not even the slightest hint that any man or group of men decided to fabricate anything that was made within the Tabernacle. They were all made upon the direct command of God. The 2nd Commandment forbids MEN to make any graven images or any likeness of God.

You got me there, Pilgrim nails it again.

The main objection and majority position is, that the objects must be used or intended for worship ;Which of course logically leads to the idea that an Israelite could lawfully make such and image , say of Dagon, provided he never actually bowed down to it.

My grandmother used to say' Thats like stirring pigeon milk with a frog feather'

What majority position are you referring to? I am not clear about what you saying.

According to the Heidelberg Catechism, Question 96, 97, and 98. There are really two parts to the Commandment: 1. the making of such images is forbidden, and; 2. the worship of such images is forbidden. You can read the Questions and Answers with Commentary here.

On another forum. Some one asked about wearing a crucifix and most folks subscribe to the idea that unless the image is to be used in worship it is permissible, even condoned.

Heidelberg Catechism; I ve heard of it but I dont know anything about it. Is it much different from Westminster? I see the conclusions the same wrt this particular issue.

The Heidelberg Catechism teaches the same position, i.e., it is based upon the same interpretation and application of the 2nd Commandment as the Westminster Larger Catechism, Q&A 109:

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Q109: What are the sins forbidden in the second commandment?
A109: The sins forbidden in the second commandment are, all devising,[1] counseling,[2] commanding,[3] using,[4] and anywise approving, any religious worship not instituted by God himself;[5] tolerating a false religion;[6] the making any representation of God, of all or of any of the three persons, either inwardly in our mind, or outwardly in any kind of image or likeness of any creature whatsoever;[7] all worshiping of it,[8] or God in it or by it;[9] the making of any representation of feigned deities,[10] and all worship of them, or service belonging to them;[11] all superstitious devices,[12] corrupting the worship of God,[13] adding to it, or taking from it,[14] whether invented and taken up of ourselves,[15] or received by tradition from others,[16] though under the title of antiquity,[17] custom,[18] devotion,[19] good intent, or any other pretense whatsoever;[20] simony;[21] sacrilege;[22] all neglect,[23] contempt,[24] hindering,[25] and opposing the worship and ordinances which God hath appointed.[26]

1. Num. 15:39
2. Deut. 13:6-8
3. Hosea 5:11; Micah 6:16
4. I Kings 11:33; 12:33
5. Deut. 12:30-32
6. Deut. 13:6-12; Zech. 13:2-3; Rev. 2:2, 14-15, 20, Rev. 17:12, 16-17
7. Deut. 4:15-19; Acts 17:29; Rom. 1:21-23, 25
8. Dan. 3:18; Gal. 4:8
9. Exod. 32:5
10. Exod. 32:8
11. I Kings 18:26, 28; Isa. 65:11
12. Acts 17:22; Col. 2:21-23
13. Mal. 1:7-8, 14
14. Deut. 4:2
15. Psa. 106:39
16. Matt. 15:9
17. I Peter 1:18
18. Jer. 44:17
19. Isa. 65:3-5; Gal. 1:13-14
20. I Sam. 13:11-12; 15:21
21. Acts 8:18
22. Rom. 2:22; Mal. 3:8
23. Exod. 4:24-26
24. Matt. 22:5; Mal. 1:7, 13
25. Matt. 23:13
26. Acts 13:44-45; I Thess. 2:15-16

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You will also notice that in regard to your previous response where it is assumed that the making of an idol, e.g., Dagan, would not be in violation of the 2nd Commandment. However, the fact is, the "majority view"... the view of the majority of the Reformers and Puritans as expressed in their personal writings and in the official confessions and catechisms of the Reformed Churches contra the current sentiments of the modern church, forbids any such thing. For example, in the Answer above, the Westminister Assembly clearly stated as to what was forbidden: "the making of any representation of feigned deities", whether or not they are worshipped or used for worship of any kind. The traditional, official view maintains that there are "2" parts to the 2nd Commandment and must be understood in this manner; a) the prohibition of representations of God or other deities in any form AND b) the regulation of how the true God is to be worshiped. The modern view is to combine the two parts into one and thus greatly diminish the prohibition of the making of representations of God and/or deities and/or items associated with the worship of the one true God.