The Highway Forums General Discussion Open Forum Ravi speaks at the Mormon Tabernacle

If I may jump in here? To me, a person is not and will not be genuinely converted until they have some knowledge and sense of their "total depravity". The ONLY biblical reason why anyone is converted is because they have come under conviction of their 1) sinfulness, 2) sins and 3) guiltiness before God.

Mark 2:17 (ASV) "And when Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of a physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners."

Luke 18:10-14 (ASV) "Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as the rest of men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week; I give tithes of all that I get. But the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote his breast, saying, God, be thou merciful to me a sinner. I say unto you, This man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be humbled; but he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."

It seems to be more than clear to me, that Jesus is emphasizing both the objective truth that men are sinners before God AND that those who will be saved are those who have come to realize this fact within themselves. This truth is brought out in so many other passages of Scripture, that it would be difficult to post them all here. However, if one is still not convinced of this, here are but two more examples, Matthew 11:28-30; Luke 15:11-32.

So, to iterate my position and to answer your question, which I am fully aware that it doesn't represent that which you believe, a true convert will already have a some knowledge and sense of his total depravity and it is upon that foundation that one should build, i.e., become discipled into a fuller knowledge and deeper sense of it.

In His Grace,