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I'm wondering why you have chosen not to interact with what Berkhof's "cookiecutter" defense of the biblical doctrine of justification? And it's interesting that you have read the exact same thing written by "37 others". You are obviously far more read than I. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

What do you mean interact? Pilgrim I have interacted with his and a lot of others. And I doubt I am much more read than you. I know I am nto as well versed.

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Once again, and for the last time, the decree of God doesn't secure anything in and of itself until it is executed. Thus, in the matter of justification, it was decreed that a specific remnant from Adam's fallen race should be redeemed in Christ. However, that decree only guaranteed that which God purposed would come to pass. It is in the execution of the decree in time and through various means that it is secured. Professor John Murray has nailed this down perfectly in his excellent book, Redemption Accomplished and Applied. If you haven't read this little book, I would strongly encourage you to do so.

I agree it is an excellent book.

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Lastly, you have failed to make your case from the biblical record and offer your exegesis of such texts as Rom 3:28-30; 4:2-5; 5:1; 9:30; Gal 3:6-8, 24, in order to refute the traditional view. If you can do so, I would really like to read it.

In His Grace,

The case for eternal justification is nto only based on the decree. IT is based on the covenant of redemption made in eternity. I believe I have offered an explination in regards to the children of wrath scripture. I would much rather approach this from a matter of one text at a time pilgrim. and instead of getting invloved in biblical hop scotch, let us approach this all for the Glory of God. All the scriptures you provided say we are justified by faith. I have read them and understand them to mean exactly what they say. Faith =Grace=His Blood. Paul uses all interchangeably. We are justified by His grace, In fact, scripture also says we are justified by HIS faith. A translation you have refuted in previous threads. Which BTW creates a whole other issue of understanding. One that cannot be thrown out as trivial as you have done. What is the faith of Christ? anyway I am digressing.

by faith does not equal because of faith. I still insist that faith wqould be a work then if God justified people after showing their faith.

I also believe there is merit in the distinction of being justified before God and Justified before men and Justified before conscious.

I will also state that this is a both and, not either or. If we have been given to Christ from the foundation of the world, would that not mea that the elect in the Cov of Redemption are not under condemnation while in Christ?

In Adam, we are all sinners deserving of His wrath. In Christ there is no condemnation Paul says. So if we have been in Christ from the foundation of the world, then that would mean in Christ we are not condemned ie; we are Justified.

I believe the traditional understanding has merit also Pilgrim, but I also believe the deeper truth rests in the eternal covenant within the triune Godhead.

Joe

There never was a sinner half as big as Christ is as a Savior.