Originally Posted by MikeL
Kyle writes:

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Apart from Esau selling his birthright to Jacob, Esau did not personally serve Jacob that I can recall.

Then I think the issue of individual salvation or damnation is closed: the text is not talking about individuals named Jacob and Esau. I suggest, in line with Malachi, from which this text in Romans is drawn, that Paul is actually talking about their descendants.

Yes, the text IS speaking of individuals named Jacob & Esau. The few verses before incontrovertibly speak of an individual named Isaac; and the following verses incontrovertibly speak of an individual Pharaoh. Rebekah did not conceive two nations by her husband Isaac, but two sons. These sons were not yet born, & they had not done either good or bad, when God made His choice between them & told Rebekah that the older would serve the younger, i.e., that God had chosen Jacob & not Esau. Yes, these men were the fathers of two nations, and the prophecy pointed forward to the Edomites serving the Israelites; but God chose to establish His people through the one individual, Jacob, while rejecting the other individual, Esau. The blessings of the God's promise to Abraham & Isaac fell to Jacob, not to Esau, and God's choice had nothing to do with anything which Jacob had or had not done. The blessings of God's promise to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob fall to all who believe, and it is believers who are regarded as the true descendants of Abraham (Rom. 4:16).

Originally Posted by MikeL
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In this passage Paul is arguing that God chooses some individuals & not others on no basis other than His own good pleasure (v. 18). Salvation is not on the basis of fleshly descent...

But chooses them for salvation? Perhaps we're putting that into the text - but it isn't there. Neither the word "salvation" or any of its close concepts is there.

Choosing is there, that we agree. But nothing related to the eternal states of Jacob, Esau, or their respective descendants.

Oh no, not at all. Of course "vessels of wrath prepared for destruction" (v. 22) has no referrence to an eternal state; much less would "vessels of mercy ... prepared beforehand for glory" (v. 23) have referrence to an eternal state. Indeed, there can be no doubt that when Paul speaks of the Gentiles attaining righteousness by faith (v. 30), he is by no means speaking of anything to do with salvation! And let us not forget, although Paul's discourse spans chapters 9-11, Paul most certainly is not referring to eternal salvation when he says, "if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved" (10:9).

Originally Posted by MikeL
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Indeed, Mike, let us not be too hasty to conclude from Psalm 5 that:

-God takes no pleasure in wickedness;
-no evil dwells with God;
-the boastful shall not stand before God;
-God destroys liars;
-God will grant David entrance to God's house by God's abundant lovingkindness;
-God blesses & protects the righteous.

Yes, Kyle, I think we need to be careful about these claims you divined. The boastful will surely stand before God - in the judgment. God doesn't destroy all liars - what did Jacob do to secure his brother's birthright? Was Jacob destroyed? And by destroy, do you mean damned? Was Jacob damned? We know that isn't the case. We know David is expressing God's hatred of the sin.

"Standing before God" has the meaning of standing upright in the presence of the Judge. And no, the boastful, who do not repent, will not "stand before God" - they will be forced to their knees before Him. As for liars, yes, God destroys liars - those liars who do not repent. David was a sinner too, but he repented, & God spared him. But nothing in Ps. 5 is untrue of God. God hates all who do iniquity (v. 5) - but as we know from many other places, He spares the repentant. Does this diminish the truth that God hates sinners? Not in the least. This psalm displays explicitly God's hatred of sinners.

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Look, I am not a Unitarian. I don't believe everyone goes to heaven. I know hell is a real place, a terrible place.

I believe you mean you are not a universalist, although I have no doubt that you also are not a unitarian. But speaking of hell, I asked you before whether hell was God's love for those who were doomed to it - you haven't answered yet.

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And I am very sceptical about a theology that damns souls before they're born.

Well, since God hated Esau before Esau was born - regardless of whether we understand Esau as an individual or only as a nation - then you ought to be skeptical of what the Bible teaches very clearly.

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"There are six things the Lord hates, seven that are detestable to him..."

Besides the verse from Proverbs, at least, seems to indicate God hates things. And what does detestable mean? Is this really a verse that strongly supports that God hates people eternally?

A little later on (Prov 21), we are told that false witnesses "perish" and that those who listen to them are "destroyed forever." This again seems less about making claims about eternal state, and more about the seriousness of sin.

Somehow perishing & being destroyed forever do not communicate the eternal end of false witnesses & those who heed them? You're stretching things, Mike. Of course sin is serious - so serious, in fact, that God hates all those who sin, i.e., sinners.

By the way, why haven't you addressed what I wrote in response to you on Ephesians?

Last edited by CovenantInBlood; Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:45 PM.
Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.