Originally Posted by Pilgrim
What is bothering me and I am sure others who are reading your responses, is how it is you think that all of the professors and ministers and other representatives who attended the Synod of Dordt were bereft of biblical understanding, intellectual prowess and/or discernment; that the Holy Spirit had totally abandoned each and every one who sat in judgment over the Arminian antogonists, so that they did not rightly understand what the Arminians really believed... but YOU do, some nearly 400 years after the fact.

Further, that all the books that have been written by historians and theological teachers have gotten the facts wrong concerning what went on at Dordt and distorted and/or misconstrued what the Arminians really believed... but YOU have got all right. scratch1

First of all, you ask "how it is" that if I think that the Calvinists who attended the Synod of Dordt were wrong about Arminians, then they lacked: biblical understanding, intellectual prowess, discernment, and the Holy Spirit.

I don't think this follows. I think that a person can easily be wrong about what someone else believes while still having the Spirit of God and intellect, and knowledge of the Bible.

So even if I hold that they were wrong about Arminians, which isn't my point in this discussion, all of those things you mention would not logically follow.

Mainly, I have said, in response to what you write, that *you* are wrong about what Arminians believe. You quoted the short 5 points of the Remonstants above, which is not at ALL totally inclusive of every Arminian doctrine - but you do not show how those 5 points back up any of your false claims about Arminian belief. For example: where in those five points did they write that God is "unable to" or "lacks the ability to" or lacks the power to" save those who do not have faith?

It doesn't. It isn't in there. Your claim that they believe that, then, contracts all of the quotes I mentioned to Tom (including quotes from Arminius himself). Your claims have no backing at all in the writings or claims of the remonstrants or actual arminians. The only backing you have is hear-say from calvinists (ie "I've heard that the Arminians believe X and such.").

Like the childish game of telephone, such a process leads to poor results. If you want to defend a claim about Arminian beliefs, you will have to quote an arminian.

Otherwise - I can defend claims about Calvinism (like that they teach that God is the author of sin) from quoting Arminians. That would be bogus. So also it is bogus for you to try to tell me what Arminians believe by quoting their opponents, and ignoring Arminius' writings to the contrary of your claims.