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Devil's Advocate tries to circumvent the issue by retorting:
It also seems to me that you have missed my point about mentioning "success". If it is just numbers that a Church is after, then you would be correct they "are doomed to failure" when it comes to making disciples. What I meant by that is not necessarily the numbers themselves, but the actual disciples themselves. I believe follow up is very crucial if we want to be successful in making disciples.
However, before that can be done there has to be people who are there to disciple. The seeker model just happens to provide that.
I have already addressed this issue in my first reply where I hit on the "vehicle" which the Lord demands we use to call people to Christ is the Gospel preached/taught and not some man-made pragmatic methodology which uses the world's "fads" and/or philosophy. God calls sinners to repentance and faith when the true Gospel is set forth. There is nothing in all of Scripture which advocates an ancillary method to the Gospel nor a total abrogation of it which would purport to "attract" sinners. To do so is plainly deceitful and contrary to the way in which Christians are to conduct themselves.

I can also tell you from personal experience that people become resentful and even angry when they realize that the thing which attracted them initially, be it pop music, drama, a movie, etc., was only a ruse to bring them in to hear a religious presentation, whatever form it may take. Truly, they feel that they have been "conned". Secondly, in 99.99% of the cases, the alleged "gospel" which accompanies the "entertainment" used to attract people is a "another gospel" and contrary to the biblical Gospel, to one degree or another. Whatever "converts" these other gospels produce, they are rarely, if ever, genuinely converted because regeneration has not taken place. The Holy Spirit cannot be presumed upon to work with a false gospel which He did not record in His Word.

More often than not, people are given to quoting Matthew 28:19, 20 to justify their message and methods of evangelism. However, this passage focuses primarily on the telos of evangelism and not its individual aspects. We should look at the entire Scripture to gain a proper understanding of evangelism, e.g., Mark recorded these words which speak of the specific aspect of bringing sinners to Christ:


Mark 16:15-16 (ASV) "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned."



Discipleship necessitates that conversion has occurred. And conversion necessitates that regeneration has occurred. Worldly methods will produce worldly results. Spiritual methods will produce spiritual results. Use worldly methods and you will produce religious worldlings; those who profess Christ yet who are still dead in their sins and under the judgment and wrath of God.

In His Grace,


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simul iustus et peccator

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