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Pilgrim said:
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Joe k said:
This is as exegetical is it will get from me Jeff. There is enough there to chew on.
Sorry Joe,

But all that is hardly "exegesis". You surely can pontificate, but unfortunately you haven't been able to offer any meaningful defense of your spurious view(s) from the actual passages quoted. In all honesty, what you have displayed is a classic case of "eisogesis", i.e., you have added your preconceived ideas INTO the texts rather than wrestling with them historically and grammatically to derive of their actual meaning.

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The best definition of the justification is that found in Scripture itself,

Romans 3:24 “Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus”
Romans 5:9 “Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.”
Yes, we are justfied "by grace", which includes the means of "through faith" (Eph 2:8, 9).

The scholarship of those in the past, e.g., Luther, Calvin, Goodwin, Owen, Edwards, Boston, Warfield, Hodge, Dabney, Gerstner, Sproul, Eveson, White and so many others, too many to mention, far exceeds anything you have offered and is most likely, what you are even capable of offering in this matter of justification. The "traditional" Protestant doctrine of Sola Fide was born out of great adversity which necessitated a depth of study I would confidently say is beyond you. And then, of course, there is my own personal study of this doctrine, which certainly pales in comparison to those mentioned, from which I have concluded that the Scriptures teach nothing other than the "traditional" and orthodox view. And so, I leave you to your musings and your departure from that "faith once delivered unto the saints" and pray that your eyes will be opened to that magnificent and pure truth which has sufficed in saving countless others who have put the destiny of the souls upon it.

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This unique doctrine in a special way distinguishes the church from all other nations and religions....[Justification] is the pinnacle and chief bulwark of all teaching and of the Christian religion itself; if this is obscured, adulterated, or subverted, it is impossible to retain purity of doctrine in other loci. On the other hand, if this locus is securely retained, all idolatrous ravings, superstitions and other corruptions are thereby destroyed - MARTIN CHEMNITZ (1522-1586) Loci Theologici II, p. 443
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In His Grace,


Jeff:

I see ample support for this. In fact, it is much better to believe that God in His grace justifies His elect completely at the cross. That is the point the righteousness of Christ is imputed to His elect. Exactly like it was imputed to those prior to the hiostorical event.

So far as I look at scripture I see Paul speaking of many distinct things.
1) Justified by faith
2) by the faith of Christ
3) His blood
4) His grace
5) His death

That is why I am led to believe both eternal justifiation is not very scriptural, and the trqditional understanding puts to much emphasis on faith. If Faith is a gift OF God, then He is the author of it anyway, so why would He wait to impute the righteousness of Christ to us until one believes? Doesnt this make God mutable? How can God hate His elect after electing them? I cannot grasp this at all. Therefore in order to maintain His love, He elects in eternity, justifies at the cross completely, regenerates in time, converts by the Gospel, Sanctified both immediate and continuous, then glorifies. I cannot see it any other way.

I now see the shortcomings of eternal justification after studying Ken and Steve Baloga. Scriptures allows for no other option than to believe we are justified, Christs righteousness is imputed at the cross when He said it is finished.

And Joe and Dave, these are my own words


Joe

There never was a sinner half as big as Christ is as a Savior.