<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]What is your idea on Romans 8:5-8 and 1 Corinthians 2:14-15 as it relates to Adam?</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>Zoe,<br><br>Prior to the fall Adam was not fallen. These passage refer to fallen men. The natural man is one who is still in fallen-Adam. <br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Before God ever created Adam did He not already have it planned out that because He made Adam flesh that the disposition of the flesh would be at enmity to Him (God) yet God created Adam flesh anyway? (see Romans 8:5-8).</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>Adam was made upright with the potential of sinning or not sinning. He was not inclined to sin prior to his first sin. God did not create him “in the flesh” if what you mean by this is “fallen.” <br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Did not God lay down the law in the garden "Thou shalt not eat..."? knowing full well in advance that Adam was powerless to not obey that law? Yet He made a law that He knew Adam would break so that death would enter into the whole human race per (Rom.5:12) so that mankind would need a Saviour?</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>Adam, like the redeemed, need operative grace to obey God. God could have upheld Adam. Therefore, God knew that Adam would fall not by knowing Adam per se, but by knowing his own sovereign plan, which included not giving Adam operative grace. God does take into account the creature in his decree, but only in the sense that he takes into account the creature that he himself ordained would be. Unlike in Arminian theology where God is constrained by the essence of the creature, God determined the creature's propenities and then decreed the overall plan according to the particulars of the plan, which he also planned. Both the particulars and the one plan are equally ultimate we might say. God does not consider the plan outside the creatures in the plan and visa versa. <br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Clearly, it seems to me that, the cards were definately stacked against Adam.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>Adam sinned because he wanted to disobey God. God planned it. If this is stacking the deck, so be it; but the point is that Adam had liberty and he abused it according to his own will.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"] I really doubt that Adam could understand fully spiritual matters for he was made soulish.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>Not so, otherwise Adam would have fallen immediately – as soon as he was created. After all, what is not of faith is sin. So, since Adam had not sinned prior to the time that he did sin, he must have been conducting himself according to faith, doing what was pleasing in God’s sight prior to the fall.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Now if God did this just to do it with no remedy in sight, then we might say that that was just not right. We would have to ask ourselves "How can God be justified in doing this to the whole human race?" But since Christ was crucified from the foundation of the world, we know that before Adam was made fleshly and soulish that God already had a plan in place to undo what Adam did.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>It sounds as if you are saying that if God had not planned to redeem a people for himself that he would not have been permitted to plan the fall. That would make grace into justice, which is a no no. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/nono.gif" alt="nono" title="nono[/img]<br><br>In His Grace,<br><br>Ron<br><br>P.S. Concerning your last remark, I have no intention of not keeping this friendly. If you get too out of hand, we'll just call out the big guns. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/takethat.gif" alt="takethat" title="takethat[/img]<br><br><br>
