Fred Opines:<br>But Josh, if you are correct that it is God who gives the men the power to obey his will, then why are you opposed perseverance of the saints? Can not God fully save when he wills to do so? I would think that if God gives the power for men to obey, then he can equally give the power for them to remain in that realm of eternal life.<br><br>I do believe you are still confused about our God-centered vs. man-centered argument. You believe that God only does his part in the work of salvation, that is, he has provided a way to salvation. And moreover, you erroneously believe that man has a part to play in securing that salvation, or appropriating it on his own behalf. <br><br>The truth of the matter, though Josh, is that the Bible teaches that God has done all of this for man. He just doesn't open up a door and leave it up for mankind to choose whether or not he wants to come through the door. The Bible speaks of an accomplished and applied salvation that was completed in Christ upon the cross to fulfill the eternal plan to save a people elected out by the father in eternity past. That is what Paul is arguing for in Ephesians 1:4-2:10. <br><br>Fred

"Ah, sitting - the great leveler of men. From the mightest of pharaohs to the lowest of peasants, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?" M. Burns