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believingThomas said:

Thanks for your patience with me and taking the time to help me see your point of view. I am glad that you have shown a support for and belief in the new birth. I don't know how God does this, probably can not know in this mortal body. But I know that God in His manifold grace does this and I agree that I could never save myself. I can see how it could be that moments before I choose (or change my mind) to believe in Christ in faith, the Holy Spirit has actually already done or begun to change or let's say "quicken" my formerly dead spirit into the new creature who is able to receive and spiritually discern the things that God will now perform in my life.

I think you are beginning to understand what I'm saying. It's a very important difference, in fact, to say that regeneration precedes faith rather than follows it. It makes all the difference between whether the salvation is by man's will or by God's.

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Forgive my ignorance of Calvinistic principles, but for those the Calvinist considers personally, particularly chosen as elect of God (from the foundation of the earth): what is their disposition prior to the new birth? They will not be conscious of the fact that they are the elect, but I assume there may be several interventions by the Spirit of God into their lives so that they move more or less irresistably into right relationship with Him, finally resulting in their complete salvation. The reprobate should be equally unconscious of their election to damnation and apparently God passes them by instead of goading on to faith in Christ?

The disposition of the elect prior to regeneration is the same as the disposition of the reprobate: they are totally disposed toward evil in all they think, say, and do. They are, in fact, enemies of God. The difference is that the elect will at some point be regenerated, whereas the reprobate will be condemned. The decision as to who is elect and who is reprobate is, of course, entirely God's, and it is not based on anything about us, but it is based entirely on the secret counsel of God. All of us deserve damnation, but God has endeavored to save a remnant in order that His love and mercy might be made manifest, to His glory.

Now, whether there are "several interventions of the Holy Spirit" in the lives of the elect, I think God is constantly intervening in the world. In fact, I think even the most minute detail is in the mind of God, decreed by Him from all eternity. (Even that speck of dust on the window!) All these things in conjunction work together for the good of the elect, for the just judgement of the reprobate, and for the glory of God.

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So does the Calvinist (again, sorry to use the label because it may not exactly represent your position)

I'm comfortable with the label "Calvinist." It accurately describes my theological outlook. (My only caveat would be that it accurately describes the Bible's theological outlook, as well. But that's the quibble between Calvinists and non-Calvinists, isn't it? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />)

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So does the Calvinist (. . .) believe that there is a definite change or regeneration to new life in Christ? That is, do you also accept that a miraculous change takes place whereby we are born again but by the Spirit of God in Christ Jesus? And then could it be that God chooses the "moment" of salvation and prepares our heart. Then we as a result believe on Jesus Christ (now that our new, renewed spirit has been quickened (made alive) and is able to believe.

Yes, yes, yes! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/yep.gif" alt="" /> God chooses the moment, prepares the circumstances, sends the Holy Spirit who quickens us, and as a result we believe.

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I guess that I would live in some apprehension, not wanting to outguess God for this moment, again I may be missing the point. By what I am hearing from you, believing faith is a post-salvic action, not a pre-salvic or "salvation initiated by the individual's will".

Believing faith is a post-regenerate action, though I wouldn't say post-salvific. That is, in logical order, first there is regeneration, second there is faith and repentance, and third there is justification/salvation. But practically speaking, I'd say these occur simultaneously more often than not; that is, all in a single moment. If not knowing when this moment occurs causes you apprehension, I'm inclined to say you probably don't have to worry. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />

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With that in mind, I can see now why the mass-invitation given by evangelists such as 'Billy' of my discussions would be viewed as distasteful and repugnant to the Calvinist. Let me think about this some. I have personally favored one on one or small Bible study evangelism for witnessing.

I don't think there's something wrong with mass invitations per se. Certainly, Peter's Pentecost sermon was delivered to a mass of people. The problem with Billy Graham's invitations is their content. Talk about how "God has done all He can, now it's up to you"—well, let's be honest, it's blasphemy. It paints a God who is dependent on man to save man, and that's both theologically ridiculous and unbiblical. Similarly all the junk about "accepting Jesus into your heart" by saying the "Sinner's Prayer." It becomes a kind of ritual whereby people think that because they have repeated a prayer, God owes them salvation.

Well, I hope what I've said helps clarify some things for you. You are of course welcome to ask further questions, and I and the others here will do our best to answer them. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bigglasses.gif" alt="" />

Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.