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#2586
Fri May 09, 2003 7:36 AM
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
Needs to get a Life
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Needs to get a Life
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615 |
In reply to: If you will read Rev. 11, you will see that there are two Christians left behind after the rapture.
Thank you for affirming that the WHOLE Church was not raptured as MacArthur states (N.T.Commentary, Revelation, vol 1., page 124 ff.). MacArthur as many others make a terrible transition in Rev 3:10. They assert that the whole Church will be (raptured)kept from the hour of tribulation (tereo ek)--so much for dispensational literal translations of the text? MacArthur admits that the only other place [color:red]tereo ek is used in Scripture is John 17:15:
John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest [color:red]keep them from the evil. Jesus states both passages and John wrote them (John 17:15, Rev 3:10). Notice that Christ DID NOT pray that His elect should be taken OUT OF THE WORLD (i.e. rapture), but [color:red] kept from (through) the evil in the world. Thus, in the midst of tribulation evil will not overcome God's elect fully and finally. They will be [color:red] kept through the hour of temptation what comes upon the world to try them that dwell upon the earth. Compare Matt 24:22, Mark 13:20, Acts 18:9-10, Isa 43:2. There is a great deal more here that could be said, but for now that will suffice. In reply to: And too, won't there still be bibles left on earth?
Let us remain literal to the text shall we?
Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have [color:red]not heard? and how shall they hear [color:red]without a preacher? [color:red] Two Witnesses: So two people are going to evangelize the whole world...in 1260 days. Amazing B. Graham, every denominations missionary efforts, and the rest of the Church has not been able to do this in 6000 years (+/-), but now TWO people are going to make it all happen for millions of others in 1260 days The problem here is that you have mis-interpreted the TWO witnesses as merely two individual people. But these two witnesses represent the CHURCH bearing the testimony of the Gospel by ministers and missionaries throughout the present dispensation. They are representative of the missionary task of the church: Luke 10:1 After these things the LORD appointed other seventy also, and sent them [color:red]two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come. The Lord sends His missionaries out TWO by TWO, each with different gifts complimenting the other..Thus. what you are reading in Rev 11 is the Church (still present on the earth--no rapture yet) doing God's will for 1260 days (symbolic of period of time-dispensation-from Christ's ascension to almost until the judgment day--Rev 12:14): Revelation 12:5-14 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. Now, I know you will say that you are MORE literal with the terminology than I am and thus my interpretation must be faulty. Dispensationalists pride themselves in being so literal, but this is another discussion in and of it self for they too MUST interpret the text symbolically as well (of course only where it pleases their own system, as in MacArthur above). But, the highest order of interpretation of these TWO witnesses needs to be the Scripture themselves. The Church is represented elsewhere in Scripture by twos and its mission explained. Briefly: 1. Remember the two olive trees, the two candlesticks, and Joshua and Zerubbabel (Zec 4) each represented the offices through which God blessed Israel. This then is representative of God blessing His Church through His offices in this Gospel age through the preaching of His Word and the administration of the sacraments (two).
2. As I stated above the missionaries were sent out two by two (Luke 10:1), so throughout this Gospel Age the Church as an organization, fulfills its mission in the world. [/LIST] The Church is powerful! However this mighty Church age will come to an end. The Church as a missionary organization will come to the end of its appointed mission. The beast shall rise up and destroy much of the Church (Armageddon). But not every believer will be destroyed. A small remnant shall be here when Christ returns (Luke 18:8). But the richness of the Church's missionary effort will fade. The world will gloat and look upon the Church as defeated.
But, the two witnesses rise again. In connection with Christ's Second Coming, the Church is restored to life, honor, and the power to influence.. Then comes the end. For the world the hour of opportunity is gone, but the Church triumphant hears the words "Come Up Hither". The Church ascends and its enemies follow. The judgment now comes.
The Scripture says there is ONE judgment. How many judgments are in your system? Funny, how can there be a secret rapture when Christ comes with a Shout? [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/megashout.gif" alt="megashout" title="megashout[/img]
What about your exposition of Rev 20:1-6?
Reformed and Always Reforming,
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Entire Thread
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Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?
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Anonymous
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Thu May 08, 2003 2:31 AM
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Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?
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gotribe
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Thu May 08, 2003 8:32 AM
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Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?
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Anonymous
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Fri May 09, 2003 1:01 AM
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Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?
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J_Edwards
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Thu May 08, 2003 11:15 AM
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Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?
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Anonymous
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Thu May 08, 2003 11:49 PM
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Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?
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J_Edwards
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Fri May 09, 2003 12:18 AM
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Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?
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Anonymous
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Fri May 09, 2003 1:22 AM
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Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?
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J_Edwards
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Fri May 09, 2003 2:06 AM
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Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?
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Anonymous
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Fri May 09, 2003 2:40 AM
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Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?
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J_Edwards
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Fri May 09, 2003 11:36 AM
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Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?
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Anonymous
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Sat May 10, 2003 2:23 AM
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Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?
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J_Edwards
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Sat May 10, 2003 12:54 PM
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Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?
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Anonymous
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Mon May 12, 2003 6:45 AM
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Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?
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J_Edwards
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Mon May 12, 2003 9:33 AM
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Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?
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Anonymous
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Mon May 12, 2003 10:07 AM
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Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?
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J_Edwards
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Mon May 12, 2003 10:29 AM
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Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?
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Anonymous
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Mon May 12, 2003 11:05 AM
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Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?
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J_Edwards
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Mon May 12, 2003 11:32 AM
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Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?
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Pilgrim
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Mon May 12, 2003 12:43 PM
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Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?
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J_Edwards
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Mon May 12, 2003 12:54 PM
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Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?
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Anonymous
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Mon May 12, 2003 3:19 PM
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Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?
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Pilgrim
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Mon May 12, 2003 4:11 PM
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Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?
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Anonymous
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Mon May 12, 2003 5:43 PM
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Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?
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Anonymous
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Mon May 12, 2003 11:06 PM
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Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?
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Anonymous
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Sat May 10, 2003 3:27 AM
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Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?
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J_Edwards
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Sat May 10, 2003 11:25 AM
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Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?
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carlos
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Mon May 12, 2003 6:58 PM
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Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?
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Pilgrim
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Mon May 12, 2003 7:06 PM
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Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?
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Anonymous
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Mon May 12, 2003 9:46 PM
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Dispensational Literature
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J_Edwards
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Mon May 12, 2003 9:54 PM
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Re: Dispensational Literature
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Anonymous
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Mon May 12, 2003 10:25 PM
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Re: Dispensational Literature
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J_Edwards
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Mon May 12, 2003 11:20 PM
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Re: Dispensational Literature
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carlos
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Mon May 12, 2003 10:26 PM
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Re: Dispensational Literature
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Anonymous
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Mon May 12, 2003 10:44 PM
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Re: Dispensational Literature
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J_Edwards
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Mon May 12, 2003 11:31 PM
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Re: Dispensational Literature
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Anonymous
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Mon May 12, 2003 11:52 PM
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Re: Dispensational Literature
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J_Edwards
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Tue May 13, 2003 12:02 AM
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Re: Dispensational Literature
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Anonymous
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Tue May 13, 2003 12:34 AM
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Re: Dispensational Literature
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carlos
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Tue May 13, 2003 12:54 AM
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Re: Dispensational Literature
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Wes
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Tue May 13, 2003 12:55 AM
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Earth, Heaven, or ?
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J_Edwards
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Tue May 13, 2003 1:07 AM
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Re: Dispensational Literature
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Anonymous
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Tue May 13, 2003 1:46 AM
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Re: Dispensational Literature
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J_Edwards
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Tue May 13, 2003 1:59 AM
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Re: Dispensational Literature
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Pilgrim
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Tue May 13, 2003 2:01 AM
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Re: Dispensational Literature
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Anonymous
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Tue May 13, 2003 2:11 AM
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Re: Dispensational Literature
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Pilgrim
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Tue May 13, 2003 2:39 AM
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Re: Dispensational Literature
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J_Edwards
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Tue May 13, 2003 2:46 AM
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Re: Dispensational Literature
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Anonymous
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Tue May 13, 2003 2:56 AM
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Re: Dispensational Literature
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Anonymous
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Tue May 13, 2003 1:06 AM
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Re: Dispensational Literature
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carlos
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Tue May 13, 2003 1:23 AM
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Re: Dispensational Literature
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Anonymous
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Tue May 13, 2003 2:01 AM
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Re: Dispensational Literature
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carlos
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Tue May 13, 2003 12:31 PM
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Re: Dispensational Literature
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Pilgrim
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Tue May 13, 2003 1:19 PM
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Re: Dispensational Literature
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carlos
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Tue May 13, 2003 1:27 PM
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Re: Dispensational Literature
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Anonymous
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Tue May 13, 2003 9:25 PM
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Re: Dispensational Literature
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carlos
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Tue May 13, 2003 9:38 PM
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Re: Dispensational Literature
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Anonymous
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Wed May 14, 2003 5:41 AM
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Re: Dispensational Literature
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J_Edwards
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Wed May 14, 2003 12:10 PM
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Re: Dispensational Literature
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carlos
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Wed May 14, 2003 11:41 PM
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Re: Dispensational Literature
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Anonymous
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Thu May 15, 2003 8:17 AM
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Re: Dispensational Literature
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J_Edwards
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Thu May 15, 2003 10:44 AM
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Re: Dispensational Literature
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Anonymous
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Thu May 15, 2003 3:54 PM
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Assent vs. Faith?
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J_Edwards
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Thu May 15, 2003 9:24 PM
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Re: Dispensational Literature
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Anonymous
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Wed May 14, 2003 11:16 AM
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Re: Dispensational Literature
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carlos
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Wed May 14, 2003 10:38 PM
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Re: Dispensational Literature
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Anonymous
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Thu May 15, 2003 8:50 AM
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Re: Dispensational Literature
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carlos
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Thu May 15, 2003 3:49 PM
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Re: Dispensational Literature
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carlos
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Thu May 15, 2003 9:07 PM
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Re: Dispensational Literature
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Anonymous
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Wed May 14, 2003 3:56 PM
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Re: Dispensational Literature
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Anonymous
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Thu May 15, 2003 5:48 AM
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Re: Dispensational Literature
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carlos
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Thu May 15, 2003 3:34 PM
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Re: Dispensational Literature
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J_Edwards
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Tue May 13, 2003 1:30 AM
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Re: Dispensational Literature
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Anonymous
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Tue May 13, 2003 1:57 AM
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Re: Dispensational Literature
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J_Edwards
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Tue May 13, 2003 2:04 AM
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Re: Dispensational Literature
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Anonymous
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Tue May 13, 2003 2:19 AM
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Re: Reformed Literature
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J_Edwards
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Tue May 13, 2003 2:25 AM
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Re: Reformed Literature
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Anonymous
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Tue May 13, 2003 2:52 AM
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So Many Books, so Little Time
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J_Edwards
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Tue May 13, 2003 9:48 AM
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Re: Reformed Literature
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RefDoc
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Tue May 13, 2003 8:12 PM
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Re: Reformed Literature
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J_Edwards
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Tue May 13, 2003 8:15 PM
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Re: Dispensational Literature
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Pilgrim
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Tue May 13, 2003 2:28 AM
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Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?
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Pilgrim
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Fri May 09, 2003 2:08 AM
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Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?
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Anonymous
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Fri May 09, 2003 3:05 AM
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Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?
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fredman
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Fri May 09, 2003 12:15 PM
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Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?
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li0scc0
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Fri May 09, 2003 12:22 PM
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Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?
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J_Edwards
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Fri May 09, 2003 12:46 PM
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Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?
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fredman
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Fri May 09, 2003 2:40 PM
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Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?
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J_Edwards
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Fri May 09, 2003 4:10 PM
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Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?
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Anonymous
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Sat May 10, 2003 1:06 AM
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Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?
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J_Edwards
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Sat May 10, 2003 1:23 AM
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See I told ya!
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Anonymous
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Sat May 10, 2003 1:30 AM
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Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?
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Anonymous
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Sat May 10, 2003 4:53 AM
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Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?
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Anonymous
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Sat May 10, 2003 5:47 AM
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Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?
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J_Edwards
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Sat May 10, 2003 10:40 AM
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Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?
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Pilgrim
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Fri May 09, 2003 2:22 PM
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Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?
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li0scc0
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Fri May 09, 2003 2:34 PM
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Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?
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li0scc0
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Thu May 08, 2003 11:17 AM
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Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?
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Anonymous
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Fri May 09, 2003 3:07 AM
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Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?
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Anonymous
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Fri May 09, 2003 3:52 AM
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Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?
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Anonymous
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Sat May 10, 2003 12:53 AM
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Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?
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Anonymous
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Sat May 10, 2003 1:49 AM
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Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?
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Anonymous
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Sat May 10, 2003 2:22 AM
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Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?
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Anonymous
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Sat May 10, 2003 3:40 AM
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Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?
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Anonymous
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Sun May 11, 2003 2:22 AM
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Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?
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Pilgrim
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Sun May 11, 2003 2:32 AM
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Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?
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Anonymous
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Sun May 11, 2003 3:59 AM
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Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?
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Pilgrim
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Sun May 11, 2003 2:03 PM
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Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?
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Anonymous
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Sun May 11, 2003 9:23 PM
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Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?
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Anonymous
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Mon May 12, 2003 4:52 AM
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Re: Are Calvinism and Premillennialism Incompatible?
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Anonymous
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Fri May 09, 2003 4:35 PM
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