Dear Ron, I appreciate you not just asking your question but that you did so in a manner which glorifies the One who as saved us.<br><br>First off I want you to know that I think Arminianism is so horrible in that it deifies the puny will of man rather than the august will of God. It turns the will of man into a golden idol. <br><br>I don't believe man is morally capable of anything. Only when one is saved by God can he bring forth the fruit of the Spirit and even then it is imperfect for we are still sinners though saved by grace. (not that the Spirit's fruit is imperfect but that we "have our bad days" if you will).<br><br>I'm not saying that mankind does not have a will. It surely does. The scriptures are very clear about this. But is it free? It is in bondage to sin and the "spirit now operating in the sons of stubbornness" etc. as well. There is the will of the flesh "which cannot please God" (Rom.8).<br><br>It is incorrect to call man a "free moral agency". If anything he is a "bondaged immoral agency."<br><br>And if we see why mankind (all mankind) sin we just look at Romans 5:12 where it says:<br> 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, (and it is) for that (reason that) all (mankind) have sinned." I supplied the words in parenthesis for supplying the ellipsis.<br><br>I don't know how mankind can be responsible in the ultimate sense of the word since they were "made sinners" against their will (Rom.5:19; 8:20). They cannot not sin. All sin and are wanting of the glory of God.<br><br>And since I can only go by Sola Sciptura, and I cannot find any verse in the Bible that says mankind is responsible for their actions, I cannot go above what is written. "God makes the widked for the day of judging." It doesn't say He makes it possible for them to be wicked. God makes the vessels of indignation. They don't take responsibility by telling God how to make them that way nor do they become that way due to some Arminianistic free-will choice.<br><br>In a relative sense we all have "responsibilities" to perform, both the vessels of indignation and glory. But just because a command is given such as "Thou shalt not..." does not mean that man is responsible to carry it out. "The law was given so that the offense would increase" (Rom.5). It anything it is to prove that mankind does not have the wherewithall to carry it out. In the ultimate sense though it is God that carries with much patience the vessels of indignation, and I might say that He carries them to the place where He will use them to His glory be they vessels of bed pans or spitoons or for garbage disposal. They cannot will it otherwise. They cannot choose to be a vessel of glory. So how can they be responsible? If you made a vessel of a bed pan and carried it with much patience (you sure want to be careful with that, let me tell you or it may spill! [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/rofl.gif" alt="rofl" title="rofl[/img] But do you say that the vessel you made is responsible for smelling the way it does?<br><br>Just some 2 cent thoughts from the peanut gallery. I'm not really up on the Calvinist position of responsibility but this is just how I think about it. I'm <b>not</b> saying Calvinism is wrong. Arminianism is just plain wrong.<br><br>Zoe
