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J_Edwards said:
Baptism is not added to grace, but an identification of a covenantal relationship. As limiting as illustrations are: Like a Folger's label to a can of coffee. The label adds nothing to the can (one is paper, the other steel, plastic, etc.) or coffee, but it does identify the item as a coffee can. Baptism (the label) is a sign and seal of a specific kind of relationship (a covenantal can). The contents of the can (which are placed in the can when the Maker sees fit) may be later identified as caffeinated (effectual) or decaffeinated (non-effectual). Baptism (the label) DOES NOT SAVE in ANY form, it is simply a sign and seal of the covenant. Important, yes, essential, no (for the saved there would still be a can of coffee, w/o a label).

Does a label wash away our sins (Acts 2:38, 22:16)? Deliver us from death (Romans 6:3, 4)? Regenerate us (John 3:5, 6; Titus 3:5)?Necessary to salvation (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21)?

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Can babies believe the Word of God? What does “googoo gaagaa” mean? How do you prove a baby can believe (which must be possible, if as “you” say, they can understand the preached word, otherwise why preach to them …)?

Examples of baby belief: Luke 1:41-44; Matt. 18:2-6. See Dr. Lee's "Baby Belief before Baptism" for a fuller explanation.

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What examples (from the Bible) can you give us of babies that cast out demons and that healed the sick (Mark 16:17, the verse after 16:16. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/spin.gif" alt="" />), etc.—for these signs will follow them that believe?

Does each and every believer take up the serpent too? Which snake handling cult do you belong to?

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So according to “you,” Baptism is absolutely necessary to salvation, but the Roman soldiers had more authority then Jesus and kept Him from saving whom He willed (John 6:39)? According to you Jesus is a liar, because He told the thief, “Today you shall be with me….”, but Jesus was unable to baptize him and thus, the thief went to hell (because, according to you, baptism is necessary to salvation)!


You added the word "absolutely". I said, "The thief was saved through the preached word which is also necessary to salvation. Rom. 10:13-17." Being "necessary to salvation" does not mean that baptism is the sole means of grace.

The thief did not despise any of God's appointed means of grace but may have been prevented from baptism, a necessary means of salvation, by the Roman soldiers. God does not owe us the Word, Baptism, or grace but calls, through Word and Sacrament, those whom He has predestined to receive grace.

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I said, “a dying (not dead) fetus”? The fetus, which is alive, which is human, and to which you have “claimed” it is absolutely necessary to be baptized to be saved?

No, "absolutely necessary" is what you "claim" I said. I said the preached word and baptism are necessary means to salvation. Do you have any example from scripture of an infant or adult being saved without outward means (e.g., preaching, scripture, baptism, etc.)?

Last edited by speratus; Tue Jul 12, 2005 9:38 AM.