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J_Edwards said: [color:"FF0000"]<font size="7"><marquee behavior="alternate">Heresy</marquee></font>[/color]
Arminianism, inconsistency, and just outright false doctrine, as already has been revealed in other posts, seems to prevade this stinking thinking.
Double Talk
We do not teach an irresistible grace or an irresistible working of the Holy Spirit ….. We bring the child in the conviction and hope that it believes, and we pray that God may grant it faith …. when the Word is added to the water, Baptism is valid, even though faith be lacking…. Even though infants did not believe, which, however, is not the case,
There is no Arminianism, inconsistency, or false doctrine. The WELS Q&A statement is poorly wordly (you didn't complete the sentence which perhaps even a Reform theologian might agree?); however, I think I understand what they are trying to say.
The fact that a baby may reject the saving grace freely offered by God to all babies in the sacrament of baptism is not because that particular baby resists God more than any other baby. All babies are equally and totally in bondage to sin, spiritually dead, and are not free to either accept or reject the grace offered by God in the sacrament. All babies resist the grace of God offered in baptism until and unless they are regenerated by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit overcomes resistance to grace and makes unwilling babies willing but only when and where God pleases.
With regard to your Large Catechism citation, yes, Luther is teaching presumptive baby belief in baptism ("We bring the child in the conviction and hope that it believe"). As he says elsewhere, if any baptism (regeneration) is certain, it is an infant baptism because infants don't hypocritically ask to be baptized. But he is not teaching infallible baby belief ("we pray that God may grant it faith"). He is teaching infallible validity of baptism because the validity of baptism is based upon the word of God not the faith of men or babies.
Entire Thread
"We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized. ."
Anonymous
Sat Jul 02, 2005 11:25 AM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized. ."
Wes
Sat Jul 02, 2005 1:43 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
MarieP
Sun Jul 03, 2005 3:05 AM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
Wes
Sun Jul 03, 2005 3:38 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
Peter
Sun Jul 03, 2005 5:01 AM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
Anonymous
Sun Jul 03, 2005 11:44 AM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
J_Edwards
Sun Jul 03, 2005 1:51 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
Anonymous
Sun Jul 03, 2005 6:29 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
J_Edwards
Sun Jul 03, 2005 1:40 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
Peter
Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:03 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
J_Edwards
Tue Jul 05, 2005 1:17 AM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
Peter
Wed Jul 06, 2005 2:34 AM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
J_Edwards
Wed Jul 06, 2005 2:46 AM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized. ."
Anonymous
Sun Jul 03, 2005 11:23 AM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized. ."
J_Edwards
Sun Jul 03, 2005 2:40 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized. ."
Anonymous
Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:12 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized. ."
J_Edwards
Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:56 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized. ."
Anonymous
Wed Jul 06, 2005 6:39 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized. ."
J_Edwards
Mon Jul 11, 2005 2:48 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized. ."
Anonymous
Tue Jul 12, 2005 9:43 AM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
MarieP
Tue Jul 12, 2005 12:42 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
Anonymous
Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:21 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized. ."
J_Edwards
Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:44 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized. ."
Anonymous
Thu Jul 14, 2005 2:49 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized. ."
Pilgrim
Thu Jul 14, 2005 3:47 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized. ."
Anonymous
Fri Jul 15, 2005 2:17 AM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized. ."
Pilgrim
Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:18 AM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized. ."
Anonymous
Fri Jul 15, 2005 1:08 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized. ."
J_Edwards
Sat Jul 16, 2005 7:52 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized. ."
Anonymous
Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:01 AM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized. ."
J_Edwards
Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:47 AM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized. ."
Anonymous
Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:02 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized. ."
J_Edwards
Sun Jul 17, 2005 4:46 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized. ."
Anonymous
Mon Jul 18, 2005 4:58 AM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized. ."
J_Edwards
Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:45 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized. ."
Anonymous
Tue Jul 19, 2005 3:56 AM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized. ."
J_Edwards
Tue Jul 19, 2005 12:20 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized. ."
Anonymous
Wed Jul 20, 2005 10:58 AM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized. ."
J_Edwards
Wed Jul 20, 2005 12:15 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized. ."
Anonymous
Wed Jul 20, 2005 3:20 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized. ."
J_Edwards
Wed Jul 20, 2005 5:01 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized. ."
Anonymous
Thu Jul 21, 2005 3:38 AM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized. ."
J_Edwards
Thu Jul 21, 2005 11:50 AM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized. ."
Anonymous
Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:11 AM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized. ."
J_Edwards
Fri Jul 22, 2005 11:21 AM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized. ."
Anonymous
Sun Jul 24, 2005 11:11 AM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized. ."
J_Edwards
Sun Jul 24, 2005 11:45 AM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized. ."
Anonymous
Mon Jul 25, 2005 11:04 AM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized. ."
Anonymous
Tue Jul 26, 2005 10:47 AM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized. ."
Pilgrim
Sun Jul 03, 2005 4:17 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized. ."
Anonymous
Sun Jul 03, 2005 10:19 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized. ."
Pilgrim
Sun Jul 03, 2005 11:17 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized. ."
guidedbygrace
Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:35 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
Peter
Sat Jul 30, 2005 5:40 AM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
MarieP
Sat Jul 30, 2005 2:03 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
Pilgrim
Sat Jul 30, 2005 5:35 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
guidedbygrace
Sat Jul 30, 2005 4:22 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
Peter
Sun Jul 31, 2005 9:13 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
guidedbygrace
Sun Jul 31, 2005 9:26 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
Pilgrim
Sun Jul 31, 2005 9:53 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
guidedbygrace
Sun Jul 31, 2005 10:42 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
Anonymous
Wed Aug 03, 2005 2:47 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
Pilgrim
Wed Aug 03, 2005 3:01 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
Anonymous
Wed Aug 03, 2005 7:48 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
Peter
Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:13 AM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
Anonymous
Thu Aug 04, 2005 8:01 AM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
Peter
Fri Aug 05, 2005 4:42 AM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
Anonymous
Fri Aug 05, 2005 11:51 AM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
Anonymous
Sat Aug 13, 2005 10:02 AM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
Peter
Sat Aug 13, 2005 3:12 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
Anonymous
Mon Aug 15, 2005 6:19 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
J_Edwards
Mon Aug 15, 2005 2:12 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
Anonymous
Tue Aug 16, 2005 1:41 AM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
J_Edwards
Tue Aug 16, 2005 11:57 AM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
Anonymous
Wed Aug 17, 2005 5:08 AM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
J_Edwards
Wed Aug 17, 2005 2:08 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
Anonymous
Fri Aug 19, 2005 1:31 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
J_Edwards
Fri Aug 19, 2005 2:03 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
Anonymous
Sun Aug 21, 2005 4:42 AM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
J_Edwards
Sun Aug 21, 2005 2:47 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
Anonymous
Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:04 AM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
J_Edwards
Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:57 AM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
Anonymous
Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:14 AM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
J_Edwards
Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:30 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
Anonymous
Fri Aug 26, 2005 2:18 AM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
J_Edwards
Fri Aug 26, 2005 12:26 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
Pilgrim
Fri Aug 26, 2005 6:04 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
Anonymous
Sun Aug 28, 2005 10:08 AM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
Pilgrim
Sun Aug 28, 2005 12:41 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
Anonymous
Tue Aug 30, 2005 6:47 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
Pilgrim
Tue Aug 30, 2005 7:46 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
Pilgrim
Fri Aug 19, 2005 4:19 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
Anonymous
Sun Aug 21, 2005 5:06 AM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
Pilgrim
Sun Aug 21, 2005 5:41 AM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
Anonymous
Sun Aug 21, 2005 11:09 AM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
Pilgrim
Sun Aug 21, 2005 2:38 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
Anonymous
Mon Aug 22, 2005 9:49 AM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
Anonymous
Sat Sep 17, 2005 4:58 AM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
Pilgrim
Sat Sep 17, 2005 5:08 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
Anonymous
Sun Sep 18, 2005 11:51 AM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
Pilgrim
Sun Sep 18, 2005 5:25 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
Anonymous
Mon Sep 19, 2005 3:16 AM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
Pilgrim
Mon Sep 19, 2005 5:41 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
Paul_S
Mon Sep 19, 2005 2:16 AM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
Anonymous
Tue Sep 20, 2005 10:20 AM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
Pilgrim
Tue Sep 20, 2005 4:27 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized
Anonymous
Wed Sep 21, 2005 12:00 PM
Re: "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized. ."
J_Edwards
Sat Jul 02, 2005 2:45 PM
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