The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum "We sometimes allow children to die unbaptized. ."

No, baptism does none of those things in the way you are speculating.

In Acts 2:38f while the PROMISE is to “you and your children” the text does not say that they are “all,” without exception, SAVED (Rom 9:10-22). It speaks of the fulfillment of the covenant promise (Gen 3; 17:7, etc. where’s the command). You need to include the “full” counsel of God in your interpretation of the holy Scripture.

In Acts 22:16, Luke wrote of Paul’s salvation experience. Paul was SAVED prior to baptism (Acts 9:15, he is a chosen vessel unto me; 9:17, Brother Saul). He knew Christ as LORD (Acts 22: 8, 10) prior to his baptism. Paul is not being saved by water, as he was already saved on the Damascus Road. Paul’s baptism was a physical description of the covenant relationship that he as an “adult” (not an infant) had already entered into. Yes, it was a label to all that said, “I am a Christian, I know Christ as LORD, I have repented, I now name the name of Christ, I am in the NC.”

As to Romans 6:3-4, baptism does NOT deliver from death, but representative of our death in Christ, etc. It is a picture of what has already happened (or may happen): i.e. dead with Christ, alive with Christ, etc. Moreover, it is a sign and seal of the covenant relationship. Paul here is speaking to adults that had already been baptized. Look at the context again. Rom 6 teaches salvation by the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, not baptism!

Mark 16:16 has already been covered and your deficient exegesis exposed. Thus, we come to your mis-interpretation of 1 Peter 3:21. Peter here stresses the similarity between the flood waters of Noah’s time and baptism. That is, as the flood waters cleansed the earth of man’s wickedness, so the water of baptism shows a picture of man’s cleansing from sin (Baker). Baptism is not an actual cleansing from sin, but a physical picture of such. How can physical water wash away that which is spiritual and physical ? If that were the case all who were in Noah’s flood would be saved, for they were all baptized with more water than Noah.

BOTH the baptized adult and infant (when old enough) can look back to Noah’s time and see the covenant promise (covenant continuity). Please also note that Noah and his family were SAFE in the ark prior to the judgment of the flood, thus disproving your whole thesis. Some would say, Jesus, the Ark, took the beating of the judgment waters. Have you read vs 18 of that same chapter--hint: Jesus saves. Scripture does not teach that baptismal water saves a person. Rather, a believer is saved because of Christ’s atoning death on the cross and His resurrection (Rom. 6:4).

Covenant continuity is where infant baptism is found (household baptism, oikos, etc.--you should already be familiar with these Scriptures ...). The norm in Scripture is infants (and adults) are without faith until God gives grace.

Speratus, do these texts really teach infant belief? Let us look at one of them.

I see where Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit, however why doesn’t the text say the infant was? I see here where the babe leaped for joy, however where in the text does it say the child is regenerated in the womb? Where in the text does it say the infant is born again, has repented, has faith, etc. Are you telling us now that your salvation formula for infants includes a leap? Even if we assert that John the Baptist was called from the womb, which he was, it does not necessarily mean he was regenerated from the womb. God calls all of us to some work—regenerate and unregenerate—but does not save all. Each is called for His purpose (Rom 9:21). Moreover, it is not unusual for a baby in the 6th month of pregnancy to move, and on this occasion it was interpreted “as an expression of the joy experienced by the unborn child” (Baker). The verse says nothing of the infant’s salvation or belief!

So you have NO examples from the Bible. I specifically stated for you to gather them from Scripture Speratus, for I agree with Jonathan Edwards, who said, “These extra gifts were given in order to the founding and establishing of the church in the world. But since the canon of Scripture has been completed, and the church fully founded and established, these extraordinary gifts have ceased.” Since, once again, you have NO evidence from Scripture, once again we see your error.

Speratus, we are NOT confused by what you said. We know you think salvation is:

GRACE
+
BAPTISM
________
Salvation

or, in some cases:

A LEAP
+
GRACE
+
BAPTISM
_________
Salvation

EVERY soul that was EVER saved was saved by grace ALONE and not your doctrine of baptism(s). Thus, I have the witness of ALL that were ever saved. That once again leaves you with your favorite number “0." <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/hello.gif" alt="" />