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Persnickety Presbyterian 
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Persnickety Presbyterian 
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,040 |
My question is this, from a non reformed view, this makes total sense.. God creates a decision to be made and gave in my opinion MORE than sufficient evidence that He is capable of giving them the land and the people rejected...
From a reformed view, God would have predestined this people to deny Him at that point in time and then get mad about it.. Is that no different than lining dominos up in a row a specific way and then when they all fall according to plan getting upset that they did not go where they "belong" per se??
However, from either perspective I am also confused on how Moses "talked" God out of killing everyone in His anger... Well, even from the non-Reformed perspective, God knew ahead of time what the outcome was going to be, didn't He? In fact, He knew when He created the world what the outcome of everything would be. That being the case, from the non-Reformed perspective you still have to ask, Why did God choose to create this world, knowing what would happen? You don't escape the dilemma by going that route. All you do is unsuccessfully attempt to avoid God's absolute sovereignty. If you want to avoid the dilemma "successfully," you end up having to deny God's sovereignty as well as His omniscience, and what you end up with is a God who doesn't know what's going to happen and who doesn't have the power to control any of it. Such a being would not be worthy of being called "God," I think we can agree. If we acknowledge that God is sovereign over even this, is it really just a case of Him setting up some dominoes, knocking them over, and then getting mad at the dominoes? Hardly. First, humans aren't mindless blocks. God foreordains everything that happens, but men also choose to do what they choose to do. What they will choose is limited by their capacities, desires, and options. No man ever makes a choice that is against his will, since choosing is always an act of the will. He may make a choice against some of his desires, but he still chooses according to his desires. For example, say a man is held at gunpoint and told to deny God or be killed. That man must choose between his desire to live and his desire to honor God. If he denies God, he has proven that his desire to live is greater than his desire to honor God. Many (probably most) would say such a man was "forced against his will," but though he was certainly threatened, the choice to deny God was his own: he could have chosen to die instead. All this to say that men do actually make choices and are not puppets on strings; they are thus responsible for their actions. Second, as a result of Adam's fall, all human beings are fundamentally sinful. They are born hating God and loving evil, and so it is only quite "natural" for them to disbelieve God in spite of all the good provisions he gives them; they have no desire to honor God. The attitude of the Israelites only demonstrates their sinfulness. Third, because God is holy and just, He cannot abide with sin. He must abhor, judge, and destroy sin. Therefore He is rightly angered by sinners. God's anger is not some irrational outburst because things aren't going His way (especially since all things do go His way), but it is the response of a perfectly holy nature to its opposite. If He were not angered by sin, then he wouldn't be holy or just, and He wouldn't be God. With this foundation, we can perhaps begin to explain why Moses turned away God's wrath. You see, if God ordained that the Israelites would grumble against Him, He certainly also ordained the Moses would intercede with Him on their behalf. God is not simply playing games with dominoes, reacting irrationally when they fall the "wrong" way even though He set them up that way; He is actually doing something much more profound: He is glorifying Himself. He is showing that men are sinners who do not deserve the kindness He bestows on them, that He is holy and must punish sin, and that He is full of mercy because He provides a mediator to turn away His wrath from those who rebel against him. Moses is actually a type—a foreshadowing—of the great mediator that we have in Jesus Christ. He points the way to the great salvation God provides through Jesus to miserable sinners like us, Jesus who always chose to obey God and who freely laid down His life on behalf of His sheep. To get back to the main question: God has the power and the right to do ANYTHING he wants to do.. But is it in His character to do so? God does everything He wants to do, and everything He does is in His character, which is to be holy, just, good, and merciful. That is, His character is to glorify and exalt Himself as God above all.
Kyle
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
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Entire Thread
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Gods Character??
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Clint
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Fri Jul 27, 2007 4:11 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:50 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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William
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Sat Jul 28, 2007 1:18 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Kurt Hutchison
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Sat Jul 28, 2007 5:09 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Clint
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Sat Jul 28, 2007 7:28 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Sat Jul 28, 2007 11:56 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Sat Jul 28, 2007 12:28 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Clint
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Thu Sep 27, 2007 6:25 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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J_Edwards
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Thu Sep 27, 2007 6:30 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Clint
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Thu Sep 27, 2007 11:52 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Paul_S
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Fri Sep 28, 2007 4:04 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Robin
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Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:33 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Clint
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Sat Sep 29, 2007 7:25 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Machaira
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Sat Sep 29, 2007 3:42 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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John_C
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Sat Sep 29, 2007 6:24 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Machaira
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Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:18 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Johan
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Sat Jul 28, 2007 2:16 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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CovenantInBlood
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Sat Jul 28, 2007 4:40 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Kurt Hutchison
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Sun Jul 29, 2007 1:17 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Johan
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Sun Jul 29, 2007 5:23 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:51 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Mon Jul 30, 2007 1:35 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Mon Jul 30, 2007 1:01 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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William
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Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:04 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:22 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Kurt Hutchison
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Fri Aug 03, 2007 3:26 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Fri Aug 03, 2007 2:31 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Fri Aug 03, 2007 6:23 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:53 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Fri Aug 03, 2007 8:51 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Sat Aug 04, 2007 2:42 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:52 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Sat Aug 04, 2007 6:36 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Sat Aug 04, 2007 8:01 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Sat Aug 04, 2007 10:22 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Sun Aug 05, 2007 2:16 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Paul_S
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Sun Aug 05, 2007 4:52 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Sun Aug 05, 2007 2:17 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Sun Aug 05, 2007 5:00 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Sun Aug 05, 2007 6:53 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:30 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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CovenantInBlood
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Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:24 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:27 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Mon Aug 06, 2007 3:41 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Mon Aug 06, 2007 4:22 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Johan
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Mon Aug 06, 2007 8:30 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:12 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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CovenantInBlood
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Mon Aug 06, 2007 6:00 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Mon Aug 06, 2007 6:16 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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CovenantInBlood
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Mon Aug 06, 2007 8:54 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:08 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:36 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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CovenantInBlood
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Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:40 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Wed Aug 08, 2007 2:11 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Wed Aug 08, 2007 3:31 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:19 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:52 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Wed Aug 08, 2007 5:38 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Wed Aug 08, 2007 7:06 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Wed Aug 08, 2007 8:28 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:06 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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J_Edwards
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Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:51 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Thu Aug 09, 2007 5:39 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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J_Edwards
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Thu Aug 09, 2007 7:11 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Thu Aug 09, 2007 7:50 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Thu Aug 09, 2007 9:08 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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J_Edwards
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Thu Aug 09, 2007 9:46 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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William
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Tue Aug 07, 2007 12:50 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Robin
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Tue Aug 07, 2007 10:16 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Wed Aug 08, 2007 1:18 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Wed Aug 08, 2007 3:16 PM
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Re: Gods Character?
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William
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Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:38 PM
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Re: Gods Character?
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Robin
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Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:35 AM
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Re: Gods Character?
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William
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Fri Aug 10, 2007 8:41 AM
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Re: Gods Character?
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Joe k
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Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:16 AM
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Re: Gods Character?
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Pilgrim
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Fri Aug 10, 2007 4:20 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Sat Aug 04, 2007 10:10 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Sun Aug 05, 2007 1:55 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Sun Aug 05, 2007 2:29 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Johan
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Fri Aug 03, 2007 6:53 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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William
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Sat Aug 04, 2007 9:32 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Sat Aug 04, 2007 9:53 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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William
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Sun Jul 29, 2007 12:41 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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CovenantInBlood
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Sat Jul 28, 2007 5:20 AM
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My apologies.
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Clint
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Thu Aug 23, 2007 5:48 AM
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Re: My apologies.
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Robin
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Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:01 AM
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Re: My apologies.
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William
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Thu Aug 23, 2007 10:22 PM
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Re: My apologies.
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missionaryman
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Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:01 AM
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