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CovenantInBlood said:
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Joe k said:
I agree it does not say they were dragged away in chains. I am not being that dramatic. But as I showed what the word means in this scripture, it doesnt mean they were persuaded to do what they actually wanted to do.

NASB:

Act 16:6 They passed through the Phrygian and Galatian region, having been forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia;

Act 16:7 and after they came to Mysia, they were trying to go into Bithynia, and the Spirit of Jesus did not permit them;

What do these words mean? Do they actually mean that the Spirit made them do what they already desired to do? So actually they did not want to preach in asia or go into Bithynia?

Where did I say that they were persuaded to do what they actually wanted to do all along? You are STILL confusing volition with desire. Their desire was to go to Asia and then to Bithynia, and this desire was thwarted by whatever means the Spirit chose. But the Spirit did not somehow thwart their volition and cause them to do something they had no will to do at all.

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Sihon wasn't forced to do anything against his will. God hardened Sihon in Sihon's OWN DESIRES.

Why would God have to harden someone more? It makes no sense. If the reprobate soul will have no desire to do the Will of God, why would God have to 'infuse' some other hardening? It says the Lord hardened his spirit and made his heart obsinate. If it already was like that, why would the Lord have to make it harder and more obsinate? I do not understand this.

Sihon up to that point was perhaps willing to change his mind if persuaded, but God hardened him in the course he was already intending to take such that he would not be persuaded. He did not force Sihon to do something that Sihon never wanted to do.

I know the problem I am having. I do not understand fully volition vs desire. Perhaps becasue I do nto subscribe to the school that says God has 2 wills. Therefore I may be overlapping my thoughts on that with man. Since I never found it necessary to study and type of scriptural psychology, this is where I am in understanding.


This is what the definition i found for volition.
1 : an act of making a choice or decision; also : a choice or decision made
2 : the power of choosing or determining : WILL

As an aside, why does the Holy Spirit have to use means? Can He just not supernaturally casue something? Scripture says yes, but I constantly see secondary causes, circumstances put in the mix. I am not denying these are used at times, but not always.

Moses didnt want to lead Israel. Argued with God. his desire was not to be the sapokesman. Yet he ended up going to pharoah.

I just see no problem with saying God can and does at times violate(to use your term) mans will or volition. What harm would it casue?

Edited: Added the addendum from the second post here.

Last edited by Pilgrim; Mon Aug 06, 2007 3:48 PM.
There never was a sinner half as big as Christ is as a Savior.