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Pilgrim said:
Joe,

You are contradicting yourself AND the historic understanding of this topic, of which you seem to have little regard as if those who wrote, e.g., the Canons of Dordt had less knowledge of the Bible than you do. Yes, the Holy Spirit regenerates, transforms, resurrects the dead soul. All these terms indicate taking something that exists and changing it. When a dead body is resurrected it is not to be understood that a totally new, distinct body is given. The same body is given life. When Lazarus walked out of the tomb after having been dead for 4 days, it was the very same Lazarus who was once dead but was now alive. When the Lord Christ was resurrected from the grave, it was the one and same Jesus Who had been laid there. He had the same body but a "new" transformed body; not a totally different body. We could also speak of the "New" Heaven and "New" Earth, which is not a totally different heaven and earth but one that is first purged by fire and then renewed. Likewise, the "new" covenant is not a distinctly different covenant but one that is renewed, i.e., the one covenant administered differently. (Our Baptist brethren would of course adamantly disagree! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/giggle.gif" alt="" />) When the Scripture speaks of a "new" heart, i.e., the nature or soul of an individual, it isn't teaching that God creates another, completely distinct and different soul within man, but rather the soul/nature of man is transformed, given a new, totally different disposition. But the soul itself is "born again", given life, raised from the dead.

I do have much regard Pilgrim. I do not see where I have contradicted myself. Saying i have doesnt mean i have. But I do see where you are coming from. I have never said that unregenerate man can be forced to come to Christ without given the ability to come..ie regeneration. IF I have led you to believe that God removes the old soul or body and we are given a totally different one, I apologise for leading you to that wrong conclusion. As far as this transformation or renewel, it is not returning it to some original state. I hope yo are not espousing that the Heart is transformed, or regeneration means we are returned to some 'original adam' prior to the fall. Neither will the new heaven and earth be eden once again.


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Pilgrim said:Secondly on this matter of "compel". Again I say, it means to exert a force to be sure. But NOT contrary to one's will, but rather in accord to the will. The unregenerate CANNOT be compelled to believe on Christ nor to even have any interest in Him. Regeneration must precede one being compelled to come to Christ, i.e., to be irresistibly influenced. But again, this compulsion is according to the new nature given in regeneration.

Yes, I am sure you could throw out a plethora of biblical texts, but I assure you that not one would show that man's will is violated. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/nope.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,

I told you I refuse to use the word violated. It smacks of something man can say against God's will. "DOnt violate me!!! Anyway, I know regeneration ust be first. I know the unregenerate cannot be compelled to come to Christ left in their dead state. I never said anything differently.

There never was a sinner half as big as Christ is as a Savior.