Pilgrim said:Joe k said:
What about Acts 16:6,7
6Paul and his companions traveled throughout the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been kept by the Holy Spirit from preaching the word in the province of Asia. 7When they came to the border of Mysia, they tried to enter Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus would not allow them to.
This is not bending against their desire? It looks plain to me.
Joe,
Once again.... what this text is dealing with is God the Holy Spirit preventing Paul &co. from preaching the Gospel through
secondary causes, i.e., the creating of
circumstances so that their plans had to be changed. This is what both Paul_S and I tried to convey in our most recent responses to you. The Spirit didn't put Himself between their intellect & emotions and their wills so that they were
forced to do something which was "contrary to their nature". There is nothing in this text which even hints that these men were
forced to do something which they otherwise could not/would not have done.
In His grace,
Where in the text can your 'understanding' be found pilgrim?
Lets look at it again.
6Paul and his companions traveled throughout the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been kept by the Holy Spirit from preaching the word in the province of Asia. 7When they came to the border of Mysia, they tried to enter Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus would not allow them to.
It appears you are arguing from 2 points. 1 from silence and 2 from the stubborn disposition you have that God does compel men against their desires.
There is nothing in the text to say anything other than the Holy Spirit ALONE prevented them from doind 2 things they wanted/desired to do. Preach in Asia and go to Bithynia. Now if it said, The Holy Spirit caused a storm to arise, or sickness to befall Paul I would agree with you. Again, at times we MUST take scripture for what it says in situations.
here is the cliff note version.
1)They wanted to go to Asia and preach, or else they would not have needed the HS or "2ndary casues" stop them
2) they WANTED/DESIRED, emotionally, intellectually, willingly, to go to Bithynia, and yet again the HS thrawrted their plans.
What amazes me is you can say "Joe there is nothing in the text that hints these men were forced/compelled to do something of which they did not want to do, and also say "Well it says Holy Spirit, but we must logically jump and make that mean their must have been secondary causes or circumstances even if it is not in the text.
again it is plain... KJV
Act 16:6 ¶ Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia,
1) to hinder, prevent forbid
2) to withhold a thing from anyone
3) to deny or refuse one a thing
Act 16:7 After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not.
1) to allow, permit, let
2) to allow one to do as he wishes, not to restrain, to let alone
3) to give up, let go, leave
IF you look at the second definition, we can logically conclude that to siffer them NOT, must mean they could not do as they wished, which equals desired.
Anyway, I do not see the big deal here. If God is Sovereign and can do as HE pleases, why can He not violate mans will at times? What difference would it make?
Deut 2:30-34
But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us(Israelites) pass by him: for the LORD thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day.
And the LORD said unto me, Behold, I have begun to give Sihon and his land before thee: begin to possess, that thou mayest inherit his land.
Then Sihon came out against us, he and all his people, to fight at Jahaz.
And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people.
And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain:
Eph 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Rom 8:20-21
For the creature(creation) was made subject to vanity(God's curse), not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Notice it says NOT WILLINGLY. What else could that mean except against their will?
# "And the Lord said to him, 'Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes him dumb or deaf, or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?'" (Exodus 4:11).
Do these people desire to be dumb deaf or blind? The answer has to be no.
"The king’s heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord; He turns it wherever He wishes" (Prov. 21:1).
to bend, turn, incline
It was Abimelech's desire to be with Abraham's wife, yet God prevented it. God can and does control people's hearts and actions so that they will accomplish His purpose.
"For it was of the Lord to harden their hearts, to meet Israel in battle in order that he might utterly destroy them, that they might receive no mercy, but that he might destroy them, just as the Lord had commanded Moses," (Joshua 11:20).
"But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land; for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order to deliver him into your hand, as he is today," (Deut. 2:30).
The Lord hardned his heart, He didnt just let Sihon continue in what he wanted to do naturally.
I am sorry Pilgrim. I see no other way to look at the myriad of scriptures. I am going to believe exactly what they say. And also aree at times, God is said to leave man in their own desires of evil. But I cannot discard the many that say He MAKES them do things they are not inclined to do.
