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Pilgrim said:
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Joe k said:
Scripture does support the notion that God does bend wills, maipulates, or whatever word you want to use. I have no issue saying 'forces' people to do what is not their natural inclination. For if He did not bend, or compel, noone would seek Him and I thank Him for this. Just as He leaves people in their own lusts and withdraws His grace. The only answers given in the writ is "WHo are we to reply against Him" And it is according to His good pleasure.

For if He did not bend the chosens wills, they would continue to hate God and their neighbor.
Joe,

I would have to disagree with your view, i.e., God "bends" the will of men so that they will do that which is "not their natural inclination". There is nowhere in Scripture, that I have been able to find, that this is true. On the contrary, the ONLY reason ANYONE "seeks Christ", i.e., come to Him with a true faith is that God recreates the will, aka: regeneration. In regeneration the nature is enlivened, thus changing one's "disposition" which then directs the will.

Can you provide some Scriptural evidence to support your view that God violates the will of men so that they think and/or do that which is contrary to their nature? [Linked Image]

In His grace,

Violating the will of man is too dramatic of a phrase to use. I do not like it, therefore do not equate bending or compelling man to equal this. Regeneration is not taking the old nature and just making it better, it is recreating something that is dead and then is alive. Perhaps it is semantics with us, I know you subscibe to the complete sov of God in all things Pilgrim. This is what equate wiuth bending or compelling man against their will. There is no other way to look at it.

HC Q #5

Question 5. Canst thou keep all these things perfectly?
Answer. In no wise; [c] for I am prone by nature to hate God and my neighbor. [d]

[a]: Rom. 3:20
[b]: Luke 10:27
[c]: Rom. 3:10; 1John 1:8
[d]: Rom. 8:7, Tit. 3:3


Question 8. Are we then so corrupt that we are wholly incapable of doing any good, and inclined to all wickedness?
Answer. Indeed we are; [f] except that we are regenerated by the Spirit of God. [g]

[a]: Gen. 1:31
[b]: Gen. 1:26,27; Col. 3:10, Eph. 4:24
[c]: Eph. 1:6; 1Cor. 6:20
[d]: Gen 3:6; Rom. 5:12,18,19
[e]: Psa. 51:5; Gen. 5:3
[f]: Gen. 6:5; Job 14:4; Job 15:14,16
[g]: John 3:5; Eph. 2:5


"But this is not what he [the Assyrian] intends, this is not what he has in mind; his purpose is to destroy, to put an end to many nations. "Are not my commanders all kings?" he says. . . . "As my hand seized the kingdoms of the idols, kingdoms whose images excelled those of Jerusalem and Samaria--shall I not deal with Jerusalem and her images as I dealt with Samaria and her idols?" Isa. 10:7-11

22 For seven days they celebrated with joy the Feast of Unleavened Bread, because the LORD had filled them with joy by changing the attitude of the king of Assyria, so that he assisted them in the work on the house of God, the God of Israel. ezra

25 You will be driven away from people and will live with the wild animals; you will eat grass like cattle and be drenched with the dew of heaven. Seven times will pass by for you until you acknowledge that the Most High is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone he wishes. Dan 4

“It is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure” Php 2:13.


Unless I am missing something here pilgrim, I do not understand the difficulty in saying God bends the will of man continuously. I am not a psycologist, therefore will nto get into a discussion of what the will consists of and all that. To me, it means what a man desires. Therefore if one desires what he once hated and hates what he once loved, his will if bent, compelled etc etc etc. All by the power of God.

Perhaos we differ slightly on regeneration. When God says "I will give them a NEW heart" This means exactly as it says. It does not mean I will take their old one and make it better. It is rotten, not just sick

God said to Abimelech, "I also withheld thee from sinning against Me; therefore suffered I thee not to touch her" (Gen. 20:6).

http://www.the-highway.com/pink_freewill.html

Last edited by Joe k; Fri Aug 03, 2007 4:07 PM.
There never was a sinner half as big as Christ is as a Savior.