The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Predestination

lacknothing,

With all due respect Wesley, and you by being in agreement with him, have wrested the Scriptures to your own destruction. It is imperative that we do NOT add to nor take away from what God by His Holy Spirit has written by inspiration for us. What Bible are you using where the highlighted section appears? I've checked every English translation I own, of which there are many, as well as checking the Greek text, both TR and NA and this section is noticeably absent.

Let's also look at another passage with which some have also wrested in order to avoid the indisputable truth that God predestinates men to salvation based upon His own good pleasure and without any reference to man whatsoever.

Romans 8:29-30 (KJV) "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Wesley and all semi-Pelagians/Arminians want to define "foreknow" as "knowing beforehand on the basis of peering into the annals of history and perceiving what would occur". In this case, as in the passage in Eph. 1 which you believe one can justify adding to it "foreknowing who would believe in Christ". But let's see how that works out by inserting that definition in the passage so it would then read:

Do you see the problem here? How can it be that God in eternity foresaw those who already had faith and yet call them to have faith; believe? It simply doesn't make any sense. There is of course, a much more serious problem with this type of understanding. How can God who is Omniscient, He knows all things, be said to "look into the future" to see what will occur and on the basis of what He sees, determine what shall be? First of all, this means that there are things which exist which God did not create. For if He created them and determined all things as the Scripture undeniably says He did, then what could possibly exist that He was not aware of, He being the Creator of all things? Secondly, this view denies God is Omnipotent, i.e., He has all power and authority over all things. If it is true that God only determines what already exists, then He is simply conforming Himself to something outside and apart from Himself. In other words, what he allegedly "saw" determines what He agrees will be. And lastly, it also denies that God is Omnipresent. For how could there possibly be something that is unknown to God in a place called, "the future" where He is not present?

Again, in my first reply, I not only provided a link to an article by A.W. Pink on Foreknowledge, but I explained that in Scripture, where foreknowledge has reference to the elect, it always means, "fore-loved". And thus in this text it is justified in understanding it as saying, "For whom He fore-loved, them He predestinated . . .". And this is in perfect harmony with the actual text in Ephesians 1, "Ephesians 1:4 (KJV) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: . . ."

Lastly, IF what you are proposing is true, then the word "predestination" would be meaningless, since by the most basic definition it means to determine BEFOREHAND. In truth, what should be written according to your and Wesley's definition is "postdestination", to determine AFTERWARD, i.e., to determine what was discovered by perception after the fact. The Bible nowhere speaks of such a thing. It is something fabricated by the will of man in order to escape the incontrovertible truth that God is sovereign in all things including the salvation of sinners.

Isaiah 44:7 (ASV) "And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I established the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and that shall come to pass, let them declare."

Isaiah 46:9-10 (ASV) "Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; [I am] God, and there is none like me; declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not [yet] done; saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure;"

Psalms 135:6 (ASV) "Whatsoever Jehovah pleased, that hath he done, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps;"

Daniel 4:35 (ASV) "And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?"

In His grace,