Wes said: I've only been trying to point out what the rest of Scripture has to say on this topic since you choose to exclude verses that disagree with your position.
I 'choose to exclude verses that disagree with' my 'position'?
I don't think so Wes. What I preach is taught throughout scripture. I haven't 'chosen' to exclude any verses, but obviously I can't quote all scripture in my posts, and not all scripture deals with the same doctrine. But all scripture IS agreed - the believer is not under law, but under grace.
I do believe that I have rightly divided scripture and given the true sense and meaning of it, in as far as God by His grace has enabled me and the Spirit has led me. And any verses which you have presented to me I have tried to deal with and explain in response to you.
In fact, I feel much the same way about yourselves. I have presented many passages which I don't feel that you have explained or answered. Trying to dismiss many of them with the idea that they only refer to justification just won't wash. Many of the texts I have quoted can be clearly shown to apply equally to sanctification as well as justification as they refer to the ongoing state and position of the believer. If the believer is not under law, but under grace, then that is where he is, ONGOING. Not merely 'for justification' but for 'sanctification' also.
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Wes said: Finally, I will conclude my thoughts to you with those in my previous message that you haven't responded to in your last reply.
I have pointed out in my previous replies to you and Mark faith doesn’t make the law void, rather it establishes it. The law is summarized by loving God and your neighbor. May I remind you that God gave the law to His covenant people who He already had been delivered out of bondage. The law reveals the character of God and His will for His people. It is not nor ever has been a means of justification. What seems to be missing in your theology is a clear definition of sanctification. When the Lord tells us to live holy lives what is He asking of us?
As far as your Antinomian views are concerned the Bible condemns it. The apostles condemn it. Jesus Christ condemns it. Antinomianism is a heresy that must be rejected. We are saved by grace through faith alone and we are saved and indwelt by the Holy Spirit in order that we may keep God's moral law. And keeping the moral law is the sure evidence that a Christian is justified by grace through faith alone. May God help us not to believe in antinomianism, but to believe in the true doctrine of the Holy Scriptures. Amen.
OK, Wes, I’ll answer these points also. The only reason I didn’t before was lack of time.
I have already replied and shown that faith establishes the law – it doesn’t destroy it. See my other post.
With respect to your analogy of when the law was given, I will remind you that it was given to Israel, through Moses, in the wilderness. The children of Israel travelled through the wilderness for 40 years and because of disobedience many of them never entered into the land of Canaan – Moses included. Who did take them in? Joshua did.
The figurative teaching of that is that the work of Moses led up to Joshua. Moses’ law brought condemnation, and Moses himself never entered the promised land (on earth). However, Joshua (Hebrew version of Jesus), figurative of the Lord Jesus Christ, took the people through the river Jordan into the promised land.
That is a pictorial illustration of what Moses represented (law) being replaced by what Joshua/Jesus represented (Grace in the Gospel). It was Joshua who took the people into the promised land.
That’s the analogy. Now of course we can stretch things with analogies. Israel crossed the Red sea as well as the Jordan. The law (all aspects of it) continued to be observed of course until the coming of Christ. But nevertheless the truth taught of Christ following Moses is important. Moses never entered the promised land with Joshua – they didn’t mix, law and grace don’t mix. Once faith has come we are no longer under the schoolmaster.
When the Lord tells us to live a holy life he is calling us to walk by faith, fulfilling the law of faith, the law of Christ and the law of liberty, freed from the bondage of Moses’ law, but walking in faith and love to God, and love to our brethren. The Gospel of Christ fulfils all the law’s demands, but it doesn’t put us back under the law’s legal rule as a rule of life. We walk in the spirit, and if we are led of the spirit then we are not under the law. We walk in a 'new and living way' as indwelt by the Holy Ghost. Read Hebrews 8 and 2 Corinthians 3.
I have expanded on much of that in previous posts so I won’t repeat myself here.
As to your comment “We are saved by grace through faith alone and we are saved and indwelt by the Holy Spirit in order that we may keep God's moral law”. That is utterly rejected by scripture.
We are saved by grace through faith alone and we are saved and indwelt by the Holy Spirit in order that we might walk in righteousness by faith - Yes.
But "in order that we might keep the moral law" (by which you mean the Ten Commandments)? No. Because that law is part of the Mosaic law which is one whole, including ceremonial and judicial laws and which retains its curse and sanctions. Put yourself under it and you are a debtor to keep all of it. But the 'righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us' through Christ, by faith in Him, by walking in the Spirit, in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, freed from the yoke of bondage - the law.
As I said early on in this thread there is a difference between law and righteousness. God's grace produces righteousness in the believer, it causes him to walk in a Godly manner. But that isn't done by means of the law. The law certainly delineates certain aspects of righteousness, but it doesn't produce it. The Gospel does. We fulfil what the law demands, not by using the law as a rule, but by walking in the Spirit, by faith, looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of faith. It is all of God, all of grace, so that all the praise and glory might be unto God, for Salvation is of the Lord!
I refer you to the following verses (which I have also quoted before, but which you sadly don’t seem able to accept, or understand):-
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“If ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law”. Gal 5:18.
“For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.” Romans 6:14
“But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.” Romans 7:6
“For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” Romans 8:3-4
“Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? 22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.” Galatians 4:21-31
“Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.” Galatians 5:1
