Stucco said: Paul who speaks so often of justification by faith alone, completely apart from the works of the law, always maintains that the Gospel doesn't nullify the law but upholds it!
When Paul say's that the unGodly man cannot subject himself to the law of God (Rom. 8:7)--what are we to infer about the Godly man? Christ has redeemed us, to enable us to obey the moral requirements of the law. That moral law of God which we are to obey, is revealed in the Scriptures, especially (but not exclusively) in the Decalogue.
In Romans 13, Paul speaks on ethics. Then in verses 9-10, he quotes most of the second half of the ten commandments. Doesn't his appeal to the Decalogue as that which the law of love fulfills demonstrate the abiding relevance of the law? Doesn't his appeal to the love obligation also intertwine his standard for Christian ethics with that of Jesus, who gave His summarization of the ten commandments also as "Love your neighbor as yourself." Clearly, according to Scriptures, the Decalogue is to be the ethical norm for the Christian's covenant way of life.
Mr. Potts, the statements you have made throughout this thread indicate that you have a flawed concept of sanctification. The only way that your view can be consistent, is to take Paul's teachings and hold them in direct contradiction to themselves. You have placed the flow and continuity of the Bible as a whole on a dispensationalist chopping block and butchered it to pieces. Love finds its parameters within the law of God. Your view leaves the Christian with nothing more to look to as a guide along his pilgrimage to glory, than vague, undefined "feelings." If one is truly in Christ, then he wil truly appreciate the precepts God has provided for him in His Holy Scriptures, so that he can live out his life to the glory of Christ, his Redeemer and King.
Stucco,
With respect Sir, you are wrong, being confused in your understanding of scripture. It is not I that takes “Paul's teachings and hold(s) them in direct contradiction to themselves” but yourself.
How do you do that? By doing something along the following lines. You read this:-
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“For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.” Romans 6:14-15
“Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.” Romans 7:4-6
And then you go on to read this:-
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“Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.” Romans 7:12-13
“If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good” Romans 7:16
“For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.” Romans 7:22-25
“Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.” Romans 8:7
“Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.” Romans 13:8-10
And you reach the false conclusion that although Paul says we are not under law, that we are dead to it, and that we are delivered from it, that actually he can’t really mean that in the way it sounds because of what he says about the law later on! So in effect you make those earlier statements of little worth. You “qualify” them in whatever way is necessary in order to ensure, that practically, as a rule of life, the believer is, contrary to what Paul teaches, actually still under the law, still alive to it, still in bondage to it.
But Paul’s later comments IN NO WAY contradict his earlier statements and are in no way an insistence that the believer is under law. He isn’t, he is under grace.
What Paul is showing is HOW the love which is given by grace in the Gospel fulfils the law’s demands. Not that the believer is under the law, bound by the law, or ruled by the law, but that being under grace, living by faith, led by the Spirit, the believer does not “sin that grace may abound” but actually walks in ways of righteousness which fulfil all the law’s demands. Not by law, but by grace. Not under law, but under grace. Not by the letter, but by the Spirit. Not in bondage, but in liberty. Not by the work of the flesh, but by the work of the Spirit of God within us, by the outworking of that fruit of the Spirit as we walk, by faith, looking unto Jesus.
The Gospel produces righteous conduct in the believer, fulfilling the law’s demands, but not by being under the law, or ruled by the law. And that is what you can’t understand isn’t it? “How!?”, you ask, “It’s all too vague, too mystical, all about feelings…”.
You say the following:
“Love finds its parameters within the law of God.” “Your view leaves the Christian with nothing more to look to as a guide along his pilgrimage to glory, than vague, undefined "feelings." “
No Sir. Allow me to explain.
The Spirit of God guides us using the whole word of God, not just the “moral law”. The just shall live by faith. Faith worketh by love. And love finds its parameters in THE Gospel, not simply the law, as the Gospel reveals the righteousness of God in its fullest extent, in Christ, and the Gospel fulfils all the law’s requirements. Faith is centred upon Christ, love is set upon Him, in loving response to the love which He first showed us, in that while we were yet sinners He died for us. And such love, such fruit of the Spirit flows forth not merely towards God, but towards our brethren also.
The Spirit inspired the whole word of God Stucco. And the Spirit ‘leads’ us by using the whole word of God. Our “rule of life” is not simply the “moral law”. It is to live by faith, walk in the Spirit, as the Spirit instructs us through all of God’s word. You see, we don’t ‘discard’ the law, we recognise the truth of it, the worth of it, the goodness of God in it, the holiness of God in it, the justice of God in it, we love the law of God, we delight in it after the inward man, just as Paul does in Romans 7. But we also recognise that as long as we live in this world with the flesh as well as the Spirit, that to put ourselves under the rule of law will simply flare up the sin within our flesh. To walk in the Spirit and produce conduct in keeping with the law’s demands we need to be lawfully delivered from the law, to cease to be under it. Whenever the flesh is put under the law the result is not righteousness but sin. That is the same for the believer's flesh as well as the unbeliever's.
I think this is where you go wrong in your understanding - you fail to recognise properly that the law isn't made for the new man of grace, the spirit, because that is born of God, and that which is born of God does not commit sin (see 1 John), but it is directed at the flesh to expose the sin therein, it flares up sin in the flesh and it condemns it. That is the purpose of the law, and it is the reason why the believer must be delivered from under it, so that he can walk in the Spirit, not fulfilling the lusts of the flesh. That is what Paul teaches in Romans 6 – 8 and we recognise it and believe it.
And we also recognise the worth of all God’s word, all the words of Christ in the Gospels, all the words of the Apostles in the epistles, all the word of God as inspired by the Holy Spirit. We walk in a way of righteousness, by faith, in the Spirit, conformable to God’s will as revealed in scripture by the Spirit.
But we follow all of God’s instruction, and we do not misuse it Stucco. We rightly divide it. We learn to see the difference between Old Covenant and New. Between the First Adam and the Last Adam. Between Flesh and Spirit. Between Works and Faith. Between Law and Grace.
When God by the Spirit says ““For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God” (Gal 2:19) and tells us to “Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage” (Gal 5:1) we meekly, submissively, willingly do as God instructs us. We do not put ourselves back under law which we are dead to, because then we could not live unto God. We do not entangle ourselves again with the yoke of bondage, because then we would not be free in Christ, in the liberty wherewith He hath made us free. What God has put asunder, we do not seek to join together.
By faith, in the Spirit, we keep God’s commandments. All that Christ commands us through the Gospel we willingly keep, as enabled by grace, as led by the Spirit.
Now, as to this walk Stucco, of course it isn’t easy. Walking in the Spirit isn’t automatic. Of course we are involved and we strive, we push forwards, we seek to overcome sin, we mortify the deeds of the flesh. What causes the trouble is that we still have the flesh, and the flesh warreth against the Spirit. But that is why we walk in the Spirit, not in the flesh. The law was given to show up sin in the flesh – it provides no power to restrain it, it only fuels it. To put yourself under law is not to walk in the Spirit but to seek to perfect the flesh by use of law, which never happens. In fact if under law sin has dominion over you. The only way to fulfil the law, to avoid sin, to walk in the Spirit, is not to be under the law. As it is written:
“For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.” Romans 6:14-15
In Galatians 5 we read the following:
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“For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. … For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. … This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. … But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.”
Consider this passage carefully. Faith worketh by love and love is the fulfilling of the law. Faith and love however are fruits of the Spirit, not the law, and to have the fruits of the Spirit, we walk in the Spirit. If we are led of the Spirit we are not under the law.
No, we walk in the Spirit, not under the law. He produces fruit in our lives – Faith and love included. Faith worketh by love, and love fulfils all the law’s demands. So although we are not under the law, we don’t break the law, because we are led of the Spirit who gives us faith and love which fulfils the law. The Spirit certainly instructs us through ALL the scriptures, but He never puts us back under law, in bondage to it, or to be ruled by it. No, we walk in liberty in Christ. We are ‘just’ in Christ and…
