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Pilgrim said:
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Joe k said:
Let us look at what scripture says instead of my words;

Luke 14:23
23And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.

There is the same word I used. COMPEL

1) to necessitate, compel, drive to, constrain

a) by force, threats, etc.

b) by permission, entreaties, etc.

c) by other means
Joe,

Honestly.... is this how you have arrived at this view that God "compels" men to do that which is contrary to their nature? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratchchin.gif" alt="" />

The text has nothing to do with GOD compelling anyone but rather it is speaking of men being counseled to strongly persuade other men. This is exactly what Paul wrote also: 2Cor 5:11a
"Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men;". This is dealing with the "outward call", i.e., the preaching of the Gospel. And the only way that such persuasion can be effective is if a man's nature is changed, i.e., he is "born again of the Spirit. This is regeneration which effects the "inward call", aka: irresistible grace.

The natural resistance to God and holiness is insurmountable as can be seen here:

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Acts 7:51 (ASV) "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit: as your fathers did, so do ye."
Stephen was referring to men in their natural state who resist the "outward calling" of the Spirit through the instrumentality of prophets and preachers who bring the Gospel to their hearing. Such men in their natural state CANNOT be compelled to come to Christ in faith. Dead men can't be compelled to do anything, espcially exercise faith which doesn't even exist. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/nope.gif" alt="" />

So again, do you have any passage from Scripture which demonstrates that God can and does "compel man to act contrary to his will"??

In His grace,

You seem to have a long answer for everything pilgrim. Never the less, I have nothng better to do at this moment other than mow my lawn so I will embark on your goose chase.


If you doubt the compelling force of Gods regeneration effectual call which makes one who is unwilling totally willing then I dont know how else to put my thoughts into words. I can cite scripture after scripture but you will say it doesnt mean compel in any way against ones natural inclination. Perhaps we need to define terms.

What is the will according to you?

To me it is how man chooses a or b. What drives this decision is ones desire. I think you will agree with me thus far. Man in his natural unregenerate state is unwilling to come right? There has no desire to make his will choose to come. What makes thee to differ then after regeneration? IT is the whole person is changed completely. I dont know about this recreating "historic'defination. But I see scripture speaks of a complete transformation in the elect when touched by the power of the Holy Spirit. Not just taking a sick heart and making it better, but when scripture says "New" heart or new spirit

"And I will give them one heart, and put a new spirit within them. And I will take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh

I take it for exactly as it says. He does not repair the old heart, He gives a new heart and spirit

Jeremiah 24:7 I will give them a heart to know that I am the LORD; and they shall be my people and I will be their God, for they shall return to me with their whole heart.

Calvin said in the instituttes:

If God is said to help our weake will then somethng would be left up to us, but when it is said He makes the will, then it is all God.....


This means nothign else other than the Lord, directs, bends, governs our heart as His posession.......


And as far as the woedding feast, I disagree with your opinion. Servant is used in the singular. Which can only signify the Holy SPirit, not man.

16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many: 17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready. 18 And they all with one [consent] began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused. 19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused. 20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come. 21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind. 22 And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room. 23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel [them] to come in, that my house may be filled. 24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.

Verse 21 says they were "BROUGHT" in. Not asked if they were willing. And when compel is used it basically maens the same thing.

There never was a sinner half as big as Christ is as a Savior.