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Joined: Sep 2003
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Persnickety Presbyterian 
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Persnickety Presbyterian 
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,040 |
Joe k said:
There is nothing in the text to say anything other than the Holy Spirit ALONE prevented them from doind 2 things they wanted/desired to do. Preach in Asia and go to Bithynia. Now if it said, The Holy Spirit caused a storm to arise, or sickness to befall Paul I would agree with you. Again, at times we MUST take scripture for what it says in situations. But the text does NOT say, "The Spirit forced their bodies to change direction," which is the impression your interpretation gives it. The Spirit prevented them, but it does not say HOW they were prevented. And indeed, the Spirit never prevents people from doing things by forcing them to do something other than what they are currently willing themselves to do. So while their desire to go was thwarted, it is not as though the Spirit dragged them away in chains. They were not forced, against their own volitional ability, to do something which was completely opposed to their own natures. They did not look on as their bodies began to do what they never had any intention of doing. Rather, the Spirit, by whatever means (whether directly or indirectly) limited their options and they had to choose to do something else, using their own volition. Anyway, I do not see the big deal here. If God is Sovereign and can do as HE pleases, why can He not violate mans will at times? What difference would it make?
Deut 2:30-34 But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us(Israelites) pass by him: for the LORD thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day. And the LORD said unto me, Behold, I have begun to give Sihon and his land before thee: begin to possess, that thou mayest inherit his land. Then Sihon came out against us, he and all his people, to fight at Jahaz. And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain: Sihon wasn't forced to do anything against his will. God hardened Sihon in Sihon's OWN DESIRES. Rom 8:20-21 For the creature(creation) was made subject to vanity(God's curse), not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Notice it says NOT WILLINGLY. What else could that mean except against their will? First this is in referrence to creation generally. While animals have wills, do you think rocks, trees, clouds, wind, and rain have volitional ability? No! What this means is that creation was put into bondage, but not because it WANTED to be in bondage. This is the distinction Paul was getting at before, where you have a "will" that is your desires and a "will" that is your volitional ability. It's an ambiguous word in English. But, as Pilgrim has written, if someone puts a gun to your head, you still have a choice, although you may desire to have better options. "And the Lord said to him, 'Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes him dumb or deaf, or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?'" (Exodus 4:11).
Do these people desire to be dumb deaf or blind? The answer has to be no. But what man has the volitional capability to change that circumstance? They aren't being forced to be dumb, deaf, or blind in contradiction to their own volition. That's not a choice that's available to them! I am sorry Pilgrim. I see no other way to look at the myriad of scriptures. I am going to believe exactly what they say. And also aree at times, God is said to leave man in their own desires of evil. But I cannot discard the many that say He MAKES them do things they are not inclined to do. He CHANGES THEIR INCLINATIONS, Joe! Indeed, that's exactly what regeneration is! But for the reprobate, he hardens them in their own natural inclinations.
Kyle
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
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Entire Thread
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Gods Character??
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Clint
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Fri Jul 27, 2007 4:11 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:50 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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William
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Sat Jul 28, 2007 1:18 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Kurt Hutchison
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Sat Jul 28, 2007 5:09 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Clint
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Sat Jul 28, 2007 7:28 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Sat Jul 28, 2007 11:56 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Sat Jul 28, 2007 12:28 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Clint
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Thu Sep 27, 2007 6:25 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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J_Edwards
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Thu Sep 27, 2007 6:30 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Clint
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Thu Sep 27, 2007 11:52 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Paul_S
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Fri Sep 28, 2007 4:04 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Robin
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Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:33 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Clint
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Sat Sep 29, 2007 7:25 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Machaira
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Sat Sep 29, 2007 3:42 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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John_C
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Sat Sep 29, 2007 6:24 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Machaira
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Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:18 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Johan
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Sat Jul 28, 2007 2:16 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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CovenantInBlood
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Sat Jul 28, 2007 4:40 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Kurt Hutchison
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Sun Jul 29, 2007 1:17 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Johan
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Sun Jul 29, 2007 5:23 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:51 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Mon Jul 30, 2007 1:35 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Mon Jul 30, 2007 1:01 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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William
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Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:04 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:22 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Kurt Hutchison
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Fri Aug 03, 2007 3:26 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Fri Aug 03, 2007 2:31 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Fri Aug 03, 2007 6:23 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:53 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Fri Aug 03, 2007 8:51 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Sat Aug 04, 2007 2:42 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:52 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Sat Aug 04, 2007 6:36 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Sat Aug 04, 2007 8:01 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Sat Aug 04, 2007 10:22 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Sun Aug 05, 2007 2:16 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Paul_S
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Sun Aug 05, 2007 4:52 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Sun Aug 05, 2007 2:17 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Sun Aug 05, 2007 5:00 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Sun Aug 05, 2007 6:53 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:30 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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CovenantInBlood
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Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:24 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:27 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Mon Aug 06, 2007 3:41 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Mon Aug 06, 2007 4:22 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Johan
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Mon Aug 06, 2007 8:30 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:12 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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CovenantInBlood
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Mon Aug 06, 2007 6:00 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Mon Aug 06, 2007 6:16 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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CovenantInBlood
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Mon Aug 06, 2007 8:54 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:08 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:36 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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CovenantInBlood
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Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:40 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Wed Aug 08, 2007 2:11 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Wed Aug 08, 2007 3:31 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:19 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:52 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Wed Aug 08, 2007 5:38 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Wed Aug 08, 2007 7:06 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Wed Aug 08, 2007 8:28 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:06 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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J_Edwards
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Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:51 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Thu Aug 09, 2007 5:39 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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J_Edwards
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Thu Aug 09, 2007 7:11 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Thu Aug 09, 2007 7:50 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Thu Aug 09, 2007 9:08 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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J_Edwards
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Thu Aug 09, 2007 9:46 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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William
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Tue Aug 07, 2007 12:50 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Robin
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Tue Aug 07, 2007 10:16 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Wed Aug 08, 2007 1:18 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Wed Aug 08, 2007 3:16 PM
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Re: Gods Character?
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William
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Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:38 PM
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Re: Gods Character?
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Robin
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Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:35 AM
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Re: Gods Character?
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William
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Fri Aug 10, 2007 8:41 AM
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Re: Gods Character?
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Joe k
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Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:16 AM
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Re: Gods Character?
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Pilgrim
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Fri Aug 10, 2007 4:20 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Sat Aug 04, 2007 10:10 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Sun Aug 05, 2007 1:55 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Sun Aug 05, 2007 2:29 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Johan
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Fri Aug 03, 2007 6:53 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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William
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Sat Aug 04, 2007 9:32 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Sat Aug 04, 2007 9:53 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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William
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Sun Jul 29, 2007 12:41 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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CovenantInBlood
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Sat Jul 28, 2007 5:20 AM
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My apologies.
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Clint
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Thu Aug 23, 2007 5:48 AM
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Re: My apologies.
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Robin
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Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:01 AM
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Re: My apologies.
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William
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Thu Aug 23, 2007 10:22 PM
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Re: My apologies.
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missionaryman
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Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:01 AM
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