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Joe k said:

I dont know. Becasue God says man is. I can live with that. Like I pointed out earlier, scripture does not give us a clear answer. In my first post regarding Romans 9, again this question is asked. And Paul only says "Who are you to reply against God. Job begged God for answers and was given none. So why must we concoct some misnomer of 'mans responsibility" as if we need some answer. I personally dont. I know man is held accountable for sin. But yet God ordains all. and "WHo are we to reply against God?" Thats all Paul said.

I agree that God ordains all and that men are held accountable, Joe. That's not the issue. The issue is, as Pilgrim pointed out, whether God FORCES men to do things AGAINST their will. He doesn't.

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The reprobate are not reprobated becasue of sin, they are reprobated becasue of His will alone. So why does sin have to play a part?

Joe, why do men burn in hell? Because of SIN. God created man upright and good and in His own image. Hell is punishment for sin. Election is to everlasting life; reprobation to everlasting death. These are categories that are only possible in light of the Fall.

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I know this whole conversation encompasses a ton of territory. And I appreciate you and Pilgrim. I just see no problem saying that God can manipulate man and does all the time into fulfilling His will. And still hold man accountable for his actions. Becasue He is God.

There is a difference between saying that God "manipulates" men and that he "forces them against their will"! Men always act IN ACCORDANCE WITH THEIR WILL. That is part and parcel of the nature of man. God does not force men to do things which they will not to do.

Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.