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CovenantInBlood said:

I agree that God ordains all and that men are held accountable, Joe. That's not the issue. The issue is, as Pilgrim pointed out, whether God FORCES men to do things AGAINST their will. He doesn't.


There is a difference between saying that God "manipulates" men and that he "forces them against their will"! Men always act IN ACCORDANCE WITH THEIR WILL. That is part and parcel of the nature of man. God does not force men to do things which they will not to do.


I apologise for not seeing the difference. Ephesians 2:1, 4-5 (NKJV) And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)

At the point in time of regeneration, that instance of transformation, they are acted upon against thier natural will. There is no malicious coercion, there is no gun pointing to their head, just a God of Love who comes to His elect sheep and changes them from a obstinate heart to a willing one. This supernatural act is against the elects will per se. Yes, after they are willing, but not at the exact point and time of regeneration which we dont know where it comes from as the wind. Lazarus was dead, his will was nonexistant.

Article 12 of the COD:
Article 12 states: "And this is that regeneration so highly extolled in Scripture ... which God works in us without our aid. It is evidently a supernatural work, most powerful, and at the same time most delightful, astonishing, mysterious, and ineffable. All in whose heart God works in this marvelous manner are certainly, infallibly, and effectually regenerated, and do actually believe."

Look at every time the word draw is used in the writ. HELKO. It means to drag off, impel by force."And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will DRAW all drawn unto me!"

James 2:6 "Do not rich men oppress you and DRAW you before the judgment seats?"

This drawing was not done under the willingness of the person bringing them before the judgement seat.

"And when her masters saw that the hope of their gain was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and DREW them into the market place unto the rulers." Acts 16

"No man can come to Me, except the Father which hath sent Me DRAW him..." (Jn. 6:44)

Once we are regenerated/DRAWN, we do become willing. I have no issue with that at all.

There never was a sinner half as big as Christ is as a Savior.