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Joined: Dec 2001
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Needs to get a Life
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Needs to get a Life
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615 |
JoeK, While I believe I will be repeating much of what has already been been said, what you espouse is not historic Calvinism, nor more importantly the teaching of Scripture. John emphatically states what this drawing is. You look at, “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day” (John 6:44) and see a violence of the will, but Jesus states what accomplishes this drawing, saying, “But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself” (John 12:32). However, John makes it clear earlier that this is not a violence of the will saying, “ But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God” (John 1:12-13). Though others may disagree, the “draw” is being used metaphorically here for “believe” (see Calvin). To this end, I see a very close association between irresistible grace, faith, and repentance. Yes, they do indeed differ, but are close relatives. Basically, through these chapters John is restating an earlier argument from John 3:14-15, “Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life” (compare with John 12:32). Now when you have time trek back to Numbers 21:4f and see if there is ANY violence of the will. While you will not see a violence of the will of the Israelites, you will discover that they saw their depravity and just punishment for sin. Then Moses, a type of Christ, prayed for the people (compare, John 17:9), but God did not grab all the Israelite’s eyes and make them look – did he? What does the text say: “So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, he lived” (Numbers 21:9). As Calvin states, Unless the Father draw him. To come to Christ being here used metaphorically for believing, the Evangelist, in order to carry out the metaphor in the apposite clause, says that those persons are drawn whose understandings God enlightens, and whose hearts he bends and forms to the obedience of Christ. The statement amounts to this, that we ought not to wonder if many refuse to embrace the Gospel; because no man will ever of himself be able to come to Christ, but God must first approach him by his Spirit; and hence it follows that all are not drawn, but that God bestows this grace on those whom he has elected. True, indeed, as to the kind of drawing, it is not violent, so as to compel men by external force; but still it is a powerful impulse of the Holy Spirit, which makes men willing who formerly were unwilling and reluctant. It is a false and profane assertion, therefore, that none are drawn but those who are willing to be drawn, as if man made himself obedient to God by his own efforts; for the willingness with which men follow God is what they already have from himself, who has formed their hearts to obey him.
John Calvin, Calvin's Commentaries: John, electronic ed., Logos Library System; Calvin's Commentaries, Jn 6:44 (Albany, OR: Ages Software, 1998). As far as James 2:6, the text says, “But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw [ heleko] you before the judgment seats?” However, you do realize that individuals still had a will when they were drawn into [civil] court – both then and now. Their will could have opposed the so-called “drawing.” Now, they may have suffered flogging or even death, but none-the-less they could have made another decision rather than go to debtor’s court. James’ use of the term is to show a strong influence, but not such an influence that could have violated one’s will in some way. I have literally had to hold a gun on someone to attempt to convince them to do something – like not kill their kidnapped victim, but that did not always fully convince them to stop what they were doing – the gun was a strong influence, but they still made a decision to live or die.
Reformed and Always Reforming,
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Entire Thread
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Gods Character??
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Clint
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Fri Jul 27, 2007 4:11 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:50 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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William
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Sat Jul 28, 2007 1:18 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Kurt Hutchison
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Sat Jul 28, 2007 5:09 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Clint
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Sat Jul 28, 2007 7:28 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Sat Jul 28, 2007 11:56 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Sat Jul 28, 2007 12:28 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Clint
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Thu Sep 27, 2007 6:25 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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J_Edwards
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Thu Sep 27, 2007 6:30 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Clint
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Thu Sep 27, 2007 11:52 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Paul_S
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Fri Sep 28, 2007 4:04 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Robin
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Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:33 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Clint
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Sat Sep 29, 2007 7:25 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Machaira
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Sat Sep 29, 2007 3:42 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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John_C
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Sat Sep 29, 2007 6:24 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Machaira
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Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:18 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Johan
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Sat Jul 28, 2007 2:16 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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CovenantInBlood
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Sat Jul 28, 2007 4:40 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Kurt Hutchison
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Sun Jul 29, 2007 1:17 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Johan
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Sun Jul 29, 2007 5:23 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:51 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Mon Jul 30, 2007 1:35 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Mon Jul 30, 2007 1:01 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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William
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Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:04 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:22 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Kurt Hutchison
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Fri Aug 03, 2007 3:26 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Fri Aug 03, 2007 2:31 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Fri Aug 03, 2007 6:23 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:53 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Fri Aug 03, 2007 8:51 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Sat Aug 04, 2007 2:42 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:52 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Sat Aug 04, 2007 6:36 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Sat Aug 04, 2007 8:01 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Sat Aug 04, 2007 10:22 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Sun Aug 05, 2007 2:16 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Paul_S
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Sun Aug 05, 2007 4:52 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Sun Aug 05, 2007 2:17 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Sun Aug 05, 2007 5:00 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Sun Aug 05, 2007 6:53 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:30 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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CovenantInBlood
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Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:24 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:27 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Mon Aug 06, 2007 3:41 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Mon Aug 06, 2007 4:22 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Johan
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Mon Aug 06, 2007 8:30 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:12 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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CovenantInBlood
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Mon Aug 06, 2007 6:00 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Mon Aug 06, 2007 6:16 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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CovenantInBlood
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Mon Aug 06, 2007 8:54 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:08 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:36 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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CovenantInBlood
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Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:40 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Wed Aug 08, 2007 2:11 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Wed Aug 08, 2007 3:31 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:19 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:52 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Wed Aug 08, 2007 5:38 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Wed Aug 08, 2007 7:06 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Wed Aug 08, 2007 8:28 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:06 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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J_Edwards
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Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:51 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Thu Aug 09, 2007 5:39 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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J_Edwards
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Thu Aug 09, 2007 7:11 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Thu Aug 09, 2007 7:50 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Thu Aug 09, 2007 9:08 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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J_Edwards
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Thu Aug 09, 2007 9:46 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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William
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Tue Aug 07, 2007 12:50 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Robin
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Tue Aug 07, 2007 10:16 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Wed Aug 08, 2007 1:18 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Wed Aug 08, 2007 3:16 PM
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Re: Gods Character?
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William
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Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:38 PM
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Re: Gods Character?
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Robin
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Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:35 AM
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Re: Gods Character?
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William
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Fri Aug 10, 2007 8:41 AM
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Re: Gods Character?
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Joe k
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Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:16 AM
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Re: Gods Character?
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Pilgrim
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Fri Aug 10, 2007 4:20 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Sat Aug 04, 2007 10:10 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Joe k
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Sun Aug 05, 2007 1:55 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Sun Aug 05, 2007 2:29 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Johan
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Fri Aug 03, 2007 6:53 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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William
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Sat Aug 04, 2007 9:32 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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Pilgrim
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Sat Aug 04, 2007 9:53 PM
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Re: Gods Character??
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William
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Sun Jul 29, 2007 12:41 AM
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Re: Gods Character??
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CovenantInBlood
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Sat Jul 28, 2007 5:20 AM
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My apologies.
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Clint
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Thu Aug 23, 2007 5:48 AM
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Re: My apologies.
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Robin
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Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:01 AM
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Re: My apologies.
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William
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Thu Aug 23, 2007 10:22 PM
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Re: My apologies.
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missionaryman
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Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:01 AM
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