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Posts: 3,463
Joined: September 2003
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Most Online2,383 Jan 12th, 2026
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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 56
Journeyman
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Journeyman
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 56 |
First of all, I would agree that salvation is three fold: 1) We are saved. There is an initial decision to follow Christ and a beginning point where we become disciples of Christ and students of the whole counsel of God in all the Scriptures from Genesis to Revelation. 2) We are being saved. That is, salvation is also a growing in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Sanctification is always imperfect, however. (2 Peter 3:18; Philippians 3:9-11; John 17:17). 3) We shall be saved. No one knows absolutely that they are "elect". That is, we believe we are saved and our assurance partly comes from good works. But we will not be ultimately and finally saved until we are glorified at the hour of our death. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. All that being said, the problem with Rome is that Rome confuses justification with sanctification. I take it that reason you are also confused here is that the preaching you are sitting under has not made this clear. There are many false prophets out there who preach the same doctrines as Rome. The bottom line is this: If justification is not by means of faith alone then you are correct. Justification would be by faith plus works. But if that is so no one could ever have any assurance of salvation whatsoever. Why not? Because God's moral law requires absolutely sinless obedience. No one except Christ could possibly meet that standard. (Matthew 5:17-20, 48). Although good works do contribute something to our assurance the ultimate assurance comes from the fact that the ground of our justification is NOT in US. It is the CROSS! It is an objective and finished work of Christ who lived a sinless life for us and paid the penalty for our sins on the cross. This is called the active and passive obedience of Christ. When He died He said, "It is finished!". The finished work of Christ is absolutely necessary for any assurance of salvation. (John 19:30). God does not grade on a curve. If you are going to heaven based on works, you FAIL. That is why Roman Catholics are not saved. It's also why ALL those who teach salvation by works are lost: "Not everyone who says to Me,`Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 "Many will say to Me in that day,`Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 "And then I will declare to them,`I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!' (Matthew 7:21-23 NKJ) Furthermore, all of our righteousnesses are like filthy menstrual rags in the sight of God (Isaiah 64:6). Unless we are justified by faith our works are worthless and cannot please God whatsoever. Saying that works are necessary for our justification before God is to confuse sanctification with justification. Justification is objective and the ground or basis for our justification is outside of us on the cross. Faith is not the ground of our justification. It is the means or instrument by which justification is applied to our minds/hearts. Justification is perfect. It is imputed to us on the legal and forensic basis of Christ's sacrifice for His elect on the cross. Sanctification, otoh, is always imperfect. We grow in sanctification but never arrive. (Philippians 2:12; 3:12-14). Sanctification is infused in the heart. It is subjective and relative. This is why Rome gets it wrong. Rome confuses the cross with the imperfection of our progress in sanctification of the heart/mind. Although it is true that some evidence of a true profession of faith is necessary for membership in the visible church, it is not true that sanctification adds ANYTHING to our justification whatsoever. Salvation is founded on justification, NOT sanctification. Sanctification is the logical result of our justification and in that sense is part of our being saved. BUT if you're trusting in good works to JUSTIFY you now OR in the judgment then I would say you can have NO assurance of salvation whatsoever. Good works are a "sign" of a true profession of faith. They can add to our assurance because we obey the moral law as part of our duty under the 3rd use of the law. But the ultimate assurance, as Martin Luther taught, is from the justification which is by means of faith alone. (Romans 4:1-8; Galatians 2:16-20). We all fall short of the mark (Romans 3:23). The false teachers love to confuse justification with sanctification and focus on ambiguity rather than logical clarity from God's propositional truths in Scripture. The reason the thief on the cross was saved was faith, not works. The same is true of every true believer here on earth. XII. Of Good Works. ALBEIT that good works, which are the fruits of faith and follow after justification, cannot put away our sins and endure the severity of God's judgement, yet are they pleasing and acceptable to God in Christ, and do spring out necessarily of a true and lively faith, insomuch that by them a lively faith may be as evidently known as a tree discerned by the fruit. Article XIIJustification is by faith and faith alone: XI. Of the Justification of Man. WE are accounted righteous before God, only for the merit of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ by faith, and not for our own works or deservings. Wherefore that we are justified by faith only is a most wholesome doctrine, and very full of comfort; as more largely is expressed in the Homily of Justification. Article XIThe pertinent Articles in the 39 Articles of Religion that deal with salvation, justification, sanctification, etc. are Articles 9-18. God's peace be with you, Charlie Romans 5:1-2
For "who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ. (1 Corinthians 2:16 NKJ)
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Entire Thread
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Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Sun Jun 02, 2002 2:21 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Sun Jun 02, 2002 10:12 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Mon Jun 03, 2002 1:01 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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lazarus
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Mon Jun 03, 2002 2:14 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Tue Jun 04, 2002 7:35 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Jason1646
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Tue Jun 04, 2002 12:52 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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lazarus
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Tue Jun 04, 2002 2:19 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Tue Jun 04, 2002 3:57 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Jason1646
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Tue Jun 04, 2002 5:03 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Thu Jun 06, 2002 10:04 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Pilgrim
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Tue Jun 04, 2002 5:41 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Mon Jun 03, 2002 9:40 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Tue Jun 04, 2002 7:20 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Tue Jun 04, 2002 8:53 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Five_Sola
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Mon Jun 03, 2002 12:00 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Tue Jun 04, 2002 7:01 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Five_Sola
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Tue Jun 04, 2002 2:43 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Wed Jun 05, 2002 12:14 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Five_Sola
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Wed Jun 05, 2002 12:37 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Wes
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Wed Jun 05, 2002 5:34 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Mon Jun 03, 2002 4:25 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Jason1646
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Mon Jun 03, 2002 7:29 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Tue Jun 04, 2002 6:54 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Jason1646
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Tue Jun 04, 2002 12:32 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Tue Jun 04, 2002 11:11 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Wes
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Wed Jun 05, 2002 12:10 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Wed Jun 05, 2002 12:27 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Thu Jun 06, 2002 9:52 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Pilgrim
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Thu Jun 06, 2002 11:29 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Sat Jun 08, 2002 3:18 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Pilgrim
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Sat Jun 08, 2002 12:58 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Sun Jun 09, 2002 5:36 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Pilgrim
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Sun Jun 09, 2002 6:01 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Sun Jun 09, 2002 7:01 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Pilgrim
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Sun Jun 09, 2002 7:31 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Sun Jun 09, 2002 8:03 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Pilgrim
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Sun Jun 09, 2002 10:33 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Sun Jun 09, 2002 11:05 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Sun Jun 09, 2002 8:05 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Thu Jun 06, 2002 11:42 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Tom
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Thu Jun 06, 2002 7:46 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Five_Sola
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Thu Jun 06, 2002 11:43 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Thu Jun 06, 2002 12:22 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Jason1646
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Thu Jun 06, 2002 2:21 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Tom
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Thu Jun 06, 2002 7:38 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Fri Jun 07, 2002 12:43 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Wes
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Thu Jun 06, 2002 6:18 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Fri Jun 07, 2002 12:29 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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lazarus
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Fri Jun 07, 2002 3:17 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Sat Jun 08, 2002 2:20 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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lazarus
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Sat Jun 08, 2002 3:14 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Sat Jun 08, 2002 4:18 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Jason1646
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Wed Jun 05, 2002 12:59 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Tom
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Wed Jun 05, 2002 6:01 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Sat Jun 08, 2002 3:02 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Wed Jun 05, 2002 4:26 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Jason1646
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Wed Jun 05, 2002 11:19 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Wed Jun 05, 2002 1:50 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Thu Jun 06, 2002 12:34 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Thu Jun 06, 2002 3:04 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Sat Jun 08, 2002 5:02 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Sat Jun 08, 2002 9:39 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Sun Jun 09, 2002 7:50 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Sat Jun 08, 2002 7:41 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Sun Jun 09, 2002 6:48 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Mon Jun 10, 2002 11:13 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Mon Jun 10, 2002 10:12 PM
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Just wondering...
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Anonymous
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Mon Jun 10, 2002 11:45 PM
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Re: Just wondering...
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Anonymous
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Tue Jun 11, 2002 3:28 AM
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Re: Just wondering...
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Jason1646
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Tue Jun 11, 2002 12:27 PM
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OUCH, that must hurt!
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lazarus
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Tue Jun 11, 2002 3:45 PM
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Re: OUCH, that must hurt!
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Anonymous
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Sun Jun 16, 2002 5:13 AM
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Re: OUCH, that must hurt!
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Jason1646
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Mon Jun 17, 2002 1:12 PM
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Kicking up sand?
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Anonymous
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Sat Jul 13, 2002 2:50 AM
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Re: Just wondering...
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Anonymous
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Wed Jun 12, 2002 10:42 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Tue Jun 11, 2002 11:16 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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lazarus
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Tue Jun 11, 2002 3:38 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Tue Jun 11, 2002 5:05 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Jason1646
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Tue Jun 11, 2002 7:26 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Sun Jun 16, 2002 5:32 AM
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Re: Gross Misunderstanding needs clarification
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Pilgrim
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Sun Jun 16, 2002 1:24 PM
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Re: Gross Misunderstanding needs clarification
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Anonymous
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Mon Jun 17, 2002 5:04 AM
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Re: Gross Misunderstanding needs clarification
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Pilgrim
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Mon Jun 17, 2002 2:33 PM
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Re: Gross Misunderstanding needs clarification
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Anonymous
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Mon Jun 17, 2002 11:48 PM
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Re: Gross Misunderstanding needs clarification
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Pilgrim
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Tue Jun 18, 2002 12:46 AM
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Re: Gross Misunderstanding needs clarification
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Tom
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Tue Jun 18, 2002 5:32 AM
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Re: Gross Misunderstanding needs clarification
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Pilgrim
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Tue Jun 18, 2002 12:13 PM
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Re: Gross Misunderstanding needs clarification
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Tom
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Wed Jun 19, 2002 4:39 AM
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Re: Gross Misunderstanding needs clarification
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Wes
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Tue Jun 18, 2002 1:54 PM
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Re: Gross Misunderstanding needs clarification
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lazarus
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Tue Jun 18, 2002 2:14 PM
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Re: Gross Misunderstanding needs clarification
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Anonymous
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Tue Jun 18, 2002 1:33 AM
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A few short questions for Scott
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Paul_S
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Tue Jun 18, 2002 4:32 PM
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Re: A few short questions for Scott
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Anonymous
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Sat Jul 13, 2002 2:58 AM
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Re: A few short questions for Scott
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Paul_S
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Sat Jul 13, 2002 3:22 AM
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Re: A few short questions for Scott
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Anonymous
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Sun Jul 14, 2002 4:25 AM
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Re: A few short questions for Scott
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Pilgrim
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Sun Jul 14, 2002 4:48 AM
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Re: A few short questions for Scott
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Anonymous
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Mon Jul 15, 2002 2:00 AM
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Re: A few short questions for Scott
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Pilgrim
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Mon Jul 15, 2002 2:24 AM
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Re: A few short questions for Scott
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Anonymous
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Fri Jul 26, 2002 12:54 AM
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Re: A few short questions for Scott
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Pilgrim
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Fri Jul 26, 2002 1:37 AM
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Re: A few short questions for Scott
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Anonymous
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Sat Jul 27, 2002 6:13 AM
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An additional set of questions for Scott
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Paul_S
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Fri Jul 26, 2002 3:29 AM
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Re: An additional set of questions for Scott
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Anonymous
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Sat Jul 27, 2002 4:56 AM
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Disconnect
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Paul_S
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Sat Jul 27, 2002 5:41 AM
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Re: Disconnect
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Anonymous
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Sat Jul 27, 2002 6:25 AM
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Re: Disconnect
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Paul_S
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Sat Jul 27, 2002 6:49 AM
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The Bottom Line
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Paul_S
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Sat Jul 27, 2002 1:34 PM
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Re: The Bottom Line
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Anonymous
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Sat Jul 27, 2002 3:50 PM
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Re: The Bottom Line
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Anonymous
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Sat Jul 27, 2002 9:53 PM
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A lesson in deduction
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Paul_S
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Fri Jul 26, 2002 5:28 AM
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Re: A lesson in deduction
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Anonymous
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Fri Jul 26, 2002 2:22 PM
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Re: A lesson in deduction
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Paul_S
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Fri Jul 26, 2002 2:29 PM
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Re: A lesson in deduction
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Anonymous
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Sat Jul 27, 2002 1:12 AM
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Baltimore Oh!'s
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Paul_S
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Fri Jul 26, 2002 5:08 PM
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Re: Baltimore Oh!'s
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Pilgrim
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Fri Jul 26, 2002 5:25 PM
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Re: Baltimore Oh!'s
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Ehud
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Fri Jul 26, 2002 8:51 PM
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My Habits vs My Intentions
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Wes
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Fri Jul 26, 2002 6:19 PM
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Re: Baltimore Oh!'s
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Anonymous
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Fri Jul 26, 2002 6:28 PM
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Especially In The Morning
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Anonymous
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Sat Jul 27, 2002 2:37 AM
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Re: Especially In The Morning
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Anonymous
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Sat Jul 27, 2002 10:58 PM
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Re: A lesson in deduction
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Anonymous
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Sat Jul 27, 2002 2:11 AM
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Great Lessons from the Baltimore Catechism!
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Anonymous
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Sat Jul 27, 2002 1:59 AM
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Re: Great Lessons from the Baltimore Catechism!
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Paul_S
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Sat Jul 27, 2002 2:58 AM
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Varieties of Semi-Pelagianism
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Paul_S
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Mon Jul 15, 2002 3:07 AM
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Re: Varieties of Semi-Pelagianism
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Pilgrim
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Mon Jul 15, 2002 1:13 PM
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Presumption, pride and boldness
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Paul_S
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Sun Jul 14, 2002 8:45 AM
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Re: Presumption, pride and boldness
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Anonymous
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Sun Jul 14, 2002 7:28 PM
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Missing the point
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Paul_S
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Sun Jul 14, 2002 10:39 PM
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Re: Missing the point
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Anonymous
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Mon Jul 15, 2002 1:57 AM
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Re: A few short questions for Scott
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Paul_S
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Sat Jul 13, 2002 3:46 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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J_Edwards
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Sun Jun 02, 2002 2:18 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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bishop3
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Sun Jun 02, 2002 2:39 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Mon Jun 03, 2002 1:04 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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bishop3
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Mon Jun 03, 2002 4:52 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Sun Jun 02, 2002 3:44 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Tom
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Sun Jun 02, 2002 6:54 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Fri Nov 07, 2003 1:09 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Tom
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Fri Nov 07, 2003 6:22 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Sat Nov 08, 2003 1:06 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Henry
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Tue Nov 11, 2003 3:10 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Tue Nov 11, 2003 6:52 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Tue Nov 11, 2003 8:13 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Henry
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Thu Nov 13, 2003 1:34 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Fri Nov 14, 2003 7:41 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Wes
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Mon Jun 03, 2002 12:25 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Mon Jun 03, 2002 1:12 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Five_Sola
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Mon Jun 03, 2002 11:54 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Mon Jun 03, 2002 4:17 PM
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Misrepresentaions of RC Justification
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J_Edwards
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Tue Jun 04, 2002 4:12 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Dvan34
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Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:10 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Dvan34
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Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:21 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Cranmer
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Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:29 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Dvan34
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Thu May 23, 2013 9:05 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Pilgrim
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Thu May 23, 2013 9:24 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Dvan34
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Thu May 23, 2013 11:09 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Tom
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Fri May 24, 2013 3:20 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Dvan34
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Fri May 24, 2013 4:17 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Pilgrim
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Fri May 24, 2013 10:00 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Milan
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Thu Jun 15, 2017 1:34 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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042Dave
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Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:40 AM
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