Scott B: >> In regards to my post. You write that the "Catholics's do not believe in works unto salvation". I agree, Catholic's do not! But "Roman Catholics" do, or are at least taught this concept. I may be mistaken, and if so, please help me unwind the idea, as I have gleaned this from the catechism of the (R) Catholic church. I was raised a RC. I attended parochial school and was involved in CYO. With all due respect, I am not new to the idea. <<

Scott W: With all due respect, (and I mean that), I believe catechesis has been inconsistent and even lacking in many places, I've heard of some/many Catholics (or more accurately "proclaimed Catholics") that outright deny certain Articles of Faith. Catholic education needs some help, though there are many out there that are educated well in the True Teachings - and I hope they use their education to help the misinformed - Protestant and Catholic alike. I'm not saying that you're not well educated in this, I don't know enough about you to say one way or the other. I'm only saying that mere association with SOME Catholic parishes (sadly) doesn't always amount to a good Catholic education.

Scott B. continues: >> How does pennance, indulgences, baptism (for the forgiveness of sins, see 1239 in C.C.C) and the mass (both for those who have already passed and for those who still live? see 1364, 1371 C.C.C) not support a *work*? <<

Scott W: Well, you're asking the same question about two different categories, 1) those already passed; and 2) those still alive. So I'll give you two answers:

1) For those already passed, they are already judged in regard to their salvation/justification. If they have been damned - no amount of prayer, penance or indulgence will do. There is no "Baptism" for the dead. If they are judged to be justified/saved - then they can receive merits from the living that may reduce their Purgatory (yet another subject).

2) For those alive, prayer, penance and indulgences done in the state of grace add to sanctification (the process toward justification). Baptism is part of Initial Grace. These things, for the living, are part of what makes up the "works" in a "saving faith."

In JMJ,
Scott<<<