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Jason writes: Scott,<br><br>Your thesis has repeatedly been that Catholicism teaches that those that are justified are saved - period, and that good works done in a state of grace don't add to salvation or increase justification because justification is the final phase in the economy of salvation.<br><br>I think it would be interesting for you to reconcile your position with the teaching of James 2:20-26. Particularly I would like to see you reconcile:<br><br>Scott's thesis: Works do not contribute to Justification, for justification cannot be increased and one must already be in a state of grace (justified) in order to do good works.<br><br>with<br><br>James 2:24: You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.<br><br>If works do not contribute to one's justification, how is it that James says that a man is justified by works? If works done in a state of grace do not cause or increase salvation or justification, but only rewards, how is it that works justify? Might I assume you follow the Reformed exegesis of this passage?! <br> <br>[color:purple]Scott replies: Jason, first off let's be truthful and tell the whole truth which is something that seems to be either a challenge for you to do, or a deliberate attempt to "spin" things in your favor. I have not only said "Works do not contribute to Justification, for justification cannot be increased and one must already be in a state of grace (justified) in order to do good works." In fact, I said that maybe once or twice. I then clarified that the Catholic Church does not always use the terminology of "justified" and "sanctified" in the manner in which I did - so your statement that I have "consistently" presented that position is false. Please retract.<br> <br>Second, I did say that there is no "increase in salvation" because "saved is saved." I added there may be differences in the rewards or "level of heaven" - but one cannot be "more saved" than another. Using an imperfect, but close, analogy: a light bulb is either on or off. If you put a dimmer on the light bulb, that doesn't change the fact that it is either on or off - only how bright it may be shining when "on."<br> <br>Third, I have nothing to reconcile to James 2:24 when one uses a less strict interpretation of "justified." In fact, if anyone has anything to reconcile it would be one who holds to a "sola fide" position, and denies that works have anything to do with justification.<br> <br>So, I ask again Jason, if you're going to represent me and/or my Church - could you please present a fuller representation of my/our position? In fact, it would be better to leave the explaining of Catholicism to Catholics. <br> <br>Scott<<<<br></font color=purple><br>
Entire Thread
Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Sun Jun 02, 2002 2:21 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Sun Jun 02, 2002 10:12 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Mon Jun 03, 2002 1:01 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
lazarus
Mon Jun 03, 2002 2:14 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Tue Jun 04, 2002 7:35 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Jason1646
Tue Jun 04, 2002 12:52 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
lazarus
Tue Jun 04, 2002 2:19 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Tue Jun 04, 2002 3:57 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Jason1646
Tue Jun 04, 2002 5:03 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Thu Jun 06, 2002 10:04 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Pilgrim
Tue Jun 04, 2002 5:41 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Mon Jun 03, 2002 9:40 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Tue Jun 04, 2002 7:20 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Tue Jun 04, 2002 8:53 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Five_Sola
Mon Jun 03, 2002 12:00 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Tue Jun 04, 2002 7:01 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Five_Sola
Tue Jun 04, 2002 2:43 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Wed Jun 05, 2002 12:14 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Five_Sola
Wed Jun 05, 2002 12:37 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Wes
Wed Jun 05, 2002 5:34 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Mon Jun 03, 2002 4:25 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Jason1646
Mon Jun 03, 2002 7:29 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Tue Jun 04, 2002 6:54 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Jason1646
Tue Jun 04, 2002 12:32 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Tue Jun 04, 2002 11:11 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Wes
Wed Jun 05, 2002 12:10 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Wed Jun 05, 2002 12:27 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Thu Jun 06, 2002 9:52 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Pilgrim
Thu Jun 06, 2002 11:29 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Sat Jun 08, 2002 3:18 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Pilgrim
Sat Jun 08, 2002 12:58 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Sun Jun 09, 2002 5:36 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Pilgrim
Sun Jun 09, 2002 6:01 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Sun Jun 09, 2002 7:01 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Pilgrim
Sun Jun 09, 2002 7:31 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Sun Jun 09, 2002 8:03 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Pilgrim
Sun Jun 09, 2002 10:33 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Sun Jun 09, 2002 11:05 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Sun Jun 09, 2002 8:05 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Thu Jun 06, 2002 11:42 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Tom
Thu Jun 06, 2002 7:46 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Five_Sola
Thu Jun 06, 2002 11:43 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Thu Jun 06, 2002 12:22 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Jason1646
Thu Jun 06, 2002 2:21 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Tom
Thu Jun 06, 2002 7:38 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Fri Jun 07, 2002 12:43 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Wes
Thu Jun 06, 2002 6:18 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Fri Jun 07, 2002 12:29 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
lazarus
Fri Jun 07, 2002 3:17 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Sat Jun 08, 2002 2:20 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
lazarus
Sat Jun 08, 2002 3:14 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Sat Jun 08, 2002 4:18 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Jason1646
Wed Jun 05, 2002 12:59 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Tom
Wed Jun 05, 2002 6:01 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Sat Jun 08, 2002 3:02 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Wed Jun 05, 2002 4:26 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Jason1646
Wed Jun 05, 2002 11:19 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Wed Jun 05, 2002 1:50 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Thu Jun 06, 2002 12:34 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Thu Jun 06, 2002 3:04 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Sat Jun 08, 2002 5:02 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Sat Jun 08, 2002 9:39 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Sun Jun 09, 2002 7:50 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Sat Jun 08, 2002 7:41 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Sun Jun 09, 2002 6:48 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Mon Jun 10, 2002 11:13 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Mon Jun 10, 2002 10:12 PM
Just wondering...
Anonymous
Mon Jun 10, 2002 11:45 PM
Re: Just wondering...
Anonymous
Tue Jun 11, 2002 3:28 AM
Re: Just wondering...
Jason1646
Tue Jun 11, 2002 12:27 PM
OUCH, that must hurt!
lazarus
Tue Jun 11, 2002 3:45 PM
Re: OUCH, that must hurt!
Anonymous
Sun Jun 16, 2002 5:13 AM
Re: OUCH, that must hurt!
Jason1646
Mon Jun 17, 2002 1:12 PM
Kicking up sand?
Anonymous
Sat Jul 13, 2002 2:50 AM
Re: Just wondering...
Anonymous
Wed Jun 12, 2002 10:42 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Tue Jun 11, 2002 11:16 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
lazarus
Tue Jun 11, 2002 3:38 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Tue Jun 11, 2002 5:05 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Jason1646
Tue Jun 11, 2002 7:26 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Sun Jun 16, 2002 5:32 AM
Re: Gross Misunderstanding needs clarification
Pilgrim
Sun Jun 16, 2002 1:24 PM
Re: Gross Misunderstanding needs clarification
Anonymous
Mon Jun 17, 2002 5:04 AM
Re: Gross Misunderstanding needs clarification
Pilgrim
Mon Jun 17, 2002 2:33 PM
Re: Gross Misunderstanding needs clarification
Anonymous
Mon Jun 17, 2002 11:48 PM
Re: Gross Misunderstanding needs clarification
Pilgrim
Tue Jun 18, 2002 12:46 AM
Re: Gross Misunderstanding needs clarification
Tom
Tue Jun 18, 2002 5:32 AM
Re: Gross Misunderstanding needs clarification
Pilgrim
Tue Jun 18, 2002 12:13 PM
Re: Gross Misunderstanding needs clarification
Tom
Wed Jun 19, 2002 4:39 AM
Re: Gross Misunderstanding needs clarification
Wes
Tue Jun 18, 2002 1:54 PM
Re: Gross Misunderstanding needs clarification
lazarus
Tue Jun 18, 2002 2:14 PM
Re: Gross Misunderstanding needs clarification
Anonymous
Tue Jun 18, 2002 1:33 AM
A few short questions for Scott
Paul_S
Tue Jun 18, 2002 4:32 PM
Re: A few short questions for Scott
Anonymous
Sat Jul 13, 2002 2:58 AM
Re: A few short questions for Scott
Paul_S
Sat Jul 13, 2002 3:22 AM
Re: A few short questions for Scott
Anonymous
Sun Jul 14, 2002 4:25 AM
Re: A few short questions for Scott
Pilgrim
Sun Jul 14, 2002 4:48 AM
Re: A few short questions for Scott
Anonymous
Mon Jul 15, 2002 2:00 AM
Re: A few short questions for Scott
Pilgrim
Mon Jul 15, 2002 2:24 AM
Re: A few short questions for Scott
Anonymous
Fri Jul 26, 2002 12:54 AM
Re: A few short questions for Scott
Pilgrim
Fri Jul 26, 2002 1:37 AM
Re: A few short questions for Scott
Anonymous
Sat Jul 27, 2002 6:13 AM
An additional set of questions for Scott
Paul_S
Fri Jul 26, 2002 3:29 AM
Re: An additional set of questions for Scott
Anonymous
Sat Jul 27, 2002 4:56 AM
Disconnect
Paul_S
Sat Jul 27, 2002 5:41 AM
Re: Disconnect
Anonymous
Sat Jul 27, 2002 6:25 AM
Re: Disconnect
Paul_S
Sat Jul 27, 2002 6:49 AM
The Bottom Line
Paul_S
Sat Jul 27, 2002 1:34 PM
Re: The Bottom Line
Anonymous
Sat Jul 27, 2002 3:50 PM
Re: The Bottom Line
Anonymous
Sat Jul 27, 2002 9:53 PM
A lesson in deduction
Paul_S
Fri Jul 26, 2002 5:28 AM
Re: A lesson in deduction
Anonymous
Fri Jul 26, 2002 2:22 PM
Re: A lesson in deduction
Paul_S
Fri Jul 26, 2002 2:29 PM
Re: A lesson in deduction
Anonymous
Sat Jul 27, 2002 1:12 AM
Baltimore Oh!'s
Paul_S
Fri Jul 26, 2002 5:08 PM
Re: Baltimore Oh!'s
Pilgrim
Fri Jul 26, 2002 5:25 PM
Re: Baltimore Oh!'s
Ehud
Fri Jul 26, 2002 8:51 PM
My Habits vs My Intentions
Wes
Fri Jul 26, 2002 6:19 PM
Re: Baltimore Oh!'s
Anonymous
Fri Jul 26, 2002 6:28 PM
Especially In The Morning
Anonymous
Sat Jul 27, 2002 2:37 AM
Re: Especially In The Morning
Anonymous
Sat Jul 27, 2002 10:58 PM
Re: A lesson in deduction
Anonymous
Sat Jul 27, 2002 2:11 AM
Great Lessons from the Baltimore Catechism!
Anonymous
Sat Jul 27, 2002 1:59 AM
Re: Great Lessons from the Baltimore Catechism!
Paul_S
Sat Jul 27, 2002 2:58 AM
Varieties of Semi-Pelagianism
Paul_S
Mon Jul 15, 2002 3:07 AM
Re: Varieties of Semi-Pelagianism
Pilgrim
Mon Jul 15, 2002 1:13 PM
Presumption, pride and boldness
Paul_S
Sun Jul 14, 2002 8:45 AM
Re: Presumption, pride and boldness
Anonymous
Sun Jul 14, 2002 7:28 PM
Missing the point
Paul_S
Sun Jul 14, 2002 10:39 PM
Re: Missing the point
Anonymous
Mon Jul 15, 2002 1:57 AM
Re: A few short questions for Scott
Paul_S
Sat Jul 13, 2002 3:46 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
J_Edwards
Sun Jun 02, 2002 2:18 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
bishop3
Sun Jun 02, 2002 2:39 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Mon Jun 03, 2002 1:04 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
bishop3
Mon Jun 03, 2002 4:52 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Sun Jun 02, 2002 3:44 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Tom
Sun Jun 02, 2002 6:54 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Fri Nov 07, 2003 1:09 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Tom
Fri Nov 07, 2003 6:22 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Sat Nov 08, 2003 1:06 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Henry
Tue Nov 11, 2003 3:10 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Tue Nov 11, 2003 6:52 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Tue Nov 11, 2003 8:13 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Henry
Thu Nov 13, 2003 1:34 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Fri Nov 14, 2003 7:41 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Wes
Mon Jun 03, 2002 12:25 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Mon Jun 03, 2002 1:12 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Five_Sola
Mon Jun 03, 2002 11:54 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Mon Jun 03, 2002 4:17 PM
Misrepresentaions of RC Justification
J_Edwards
Tue Jun 04, 2002 4:12 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Dvan34
Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:10 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Dvan34
Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:21 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Cranmer
Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:29 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Dvan34
Thu May 23, 2013 9:05 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Pilgrim
Thu May 23, 2013 9:24 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Dvan34
Thu May 23, 2013 11:09 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Tom
Fri May 24, 2013 3:20 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Dvan34
Fri May 24, 2013 4:17 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Pilgrim
Fri May 24, 2013 10:00 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Milan
Thu Jun 15, 2017 1:34 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
042Dave
Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:40 AM
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