[color:purple]Scott:</font color=purple> Well, it depends on how you're using your terminology here. Yes, works are absolutely unessential to maintaining salvation. Salvation is not something we possess here and now, it's "the prize at the end of the race." Those who persevere will attain the prize. Now the discussion would be "what is perseverence?" Does that not imply "doing something?" Initial Grace is a free gift to us, we do nothing to "earn" or "attain" that - but we can increase in holiness through good works done in the state of grace. Such works are absolutely necessary too, for without such - we'd have that "dead faith" that James refers to. <br><br>Five Sola: Well, now the clarifications are out I can say that you are not espousing a protestant/biblical teaching. Age is always an enemy with me (and I am a relatively young man) because I can't ever remember the text I am wanting to qoute [Linked Image]. (so anyone out there who can provide the text I am trying to qoute please do so, thanks). Salvation is always in Scripture a "already/not yet" scheme. We do not have perfected salvation but we do have salvation. Christ mentions that those the Father have given him [elect] He [Christ] will raise up in the last day. Not IF they continue, not hopefully if they finish he will, no he WILL raise them up to glory. The Romans 8 passage gives the famous 'chain of salvation' as it has been called and it is a if/then series that is the previous happens the latter will of course follow. By the time we arrive at the end it states that those God Justifies he will glorify. Also notice the use of past tense...it is not something open to a maybe. There are numerous passages establishing the perserveration of the Saints as a journey but one that WILL be finished by the Grace of God. I suggest if that is the path you want to discuss then lets open a new thread and focus on that.<br><br>On the topic of purgatory, I think your missing the point (as most RCC's do) If Christ sacrifice was complete as you claim (and it was) then there are no more sins held to our account. We are blameless before our God. I know some of that has to do with how RCCers misapply justification to the whole topic. But when God looks to my 'account' He sees Christ righteousness. Christ has advocated for me and had me legally declared pure. I'm not yet, not until glorification, that gets back to the already/not yet aspect of salvation.<br><br>I do agree that salvation is not something maintained, rather given at the point of justification and is something we have for certain until we reach Glory. This certainity is not from our works or actions through life (though if no fruit/works are seen then that certainty should be re-evaluated) but only by the Grace of God and the promise of Christ to hold us within his hands till eternity.<br><br>[color:purple]Scott: Hmmm, that sounds like a thinly veiled ad hominem. If I don't leave the Catholic Church, I am "uneducated." If you didn't mean it that way, then an apology is in order. Actually, one is in order either way you may have meant it.</font color=purple><br><br>well my use of the word educated was not intended to imply anything concerning you, it was to show the person I am refering was not some person ignorant of RCC teachings, he was raised in it. I should have been more clear on that. My emphasis, if any, was on his aspect of 'christian' since being a Roman Catholic he was not a christian. (I do believe their can be christian catholics but only if they are ignorant of their "churches" teachings since RCC teaching is anti-christian)<br><br>

By His Grace Alone,
Five Sola