Pilgrim wrote: If you are referring to "Justification"; how one is accepted as just before God, then by your own testimony, both Rome and yourself would agree with that statement. For you have maintained quite vehemently, that one CANNOT ADD (INCREASE) TO NOR SUBTRACT (DECREASE) FROM JUSTIFICATION. IF you are referring to "Sanctification", then no true Protestant would find that statement acceptable, for biblically, anyone who has been regenerated and given faith will infallibly be justified and all who are justified will infallibly show forth good works as fruit of that regeneration, which out of God's infinite grace, are rewarded in the end.

[color:purple]Scott replies: Actually, the statement I made, I also amended (a MANY messages ago). Rome uses the language of "justification" a bit more liberally than you do, but IF we apply it as you do (and one can do that) then when we're referring to the final justification, there is no further justification possible - one either is or isn't justified at that point. The problem is you're attempting to put your definition of justification on the Catholic's use of it. When we're operating from two different definitions - there can be no consensus. I accept some of the responsibility for my use of the terms "justification" and "justified" in the sense of a "final" justification (as Protestantism defines it), but you're constant attempt try to put THAT use on ALL uses in Catholic teaching is what I object to. In ALL instances that Catholicism uses those terms, it doesn't mean what Protestantism insists upon.

Pilgrim continues:
In reply to:

[color:purple]Trent also opposes the "once saved, always saved" mentality. Grace is a gift, but those who do not "persevere" in Grace can lose that "gift."


Could anything be more perspicuously contradictory and antithetical to all that you have posited in regard to "Justification"; both your view which is allegedly the same as Rome's OFFICIAL teaching? If Justification can NEVER be increased nor decreased, then how is it possible that anyone could be lost who has, in fact, been JUSTIFIED? It is YOU who has admitted that Rome sometimes intermixes the terms "justification" and "sanctification". And you have likewise maintained that justification is unalterable once established, but sanctification is alterable, being dynamic; subject to increase and decrease. Further, sanctification ONLY has to do with rewards.

[color:purple]Scott replies: Pilgrim, I've stated over and over again, the Catholic view on justification is not ALWAYS the way Protestants interpret it. If we view it as Protestants do, then it's a FINAL thing, and not part of the persevering. IF we are "judged" to be justified, (in the Protestant sense) then there is no more justification - for it HAS BEEN judged. The difference is that you believe you can be fully justified, here and now, and you believe (if I am following you correctly) that once you are justified, here and now, you can NEVER lose that justification. That position defeats the concept of "perseverence" that St. Paul repeatedly teaches and demands. So, you can pick and choose among my words and decide which ones you wish to use against me, but you're still not getting around St. Paul's demand that we persevere. If such is "guaranteed" then perseverence is nothing, meaningles, void.

I'll respond in another post to the rest...

In JMJ,
Scott<<<