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#566
Mon Jun 10, 2002 7:13 AM
Anonymous
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<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p> Trent States: "If any one saith, that the good works of one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified; or, that the said justified, by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ...does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life, -- if so be , however, that he depart in grace, -- and also an increase of glory: let him be anathema." <p><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>Hi Scott,<br><br>Let's see if we can bring to light the point(s) of contention.<br><br>Trent states that "the good works of one that is justified....are also the good merits of him that is justified..." <br><br>I believe that Trent is saying that our works wrought in Christ are our merits by which we are justified; whereas you would say that our works are not the meritorious basis by which we are justified. Agreed?<br><br>Next, I would say that trent also teaches that the "justified" by good works merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life (if the justified remains in grace) and increase of glory. <br><br>In other words, those who are initially justified by grace through baptism may attain eternal IF by grace they perform good works, which in turn may merit increase of grace and eventually the attainment of that eternal life. <br><br>To this you respond with: "If one merits an increase in grace through works, that doesn't increase one's salvation - again, that's an either/or situation - but one can attain greater rewards due to works, hence an increase, perhaps, in one's position (level of heaven or amount of rewards) but not an increase in the attainment of salvation." <br><br>You say, Scott, that one's meritorious works "doesn't increase one's salvation". I must differ with your view of Trent because Trent states that good works does not only merit increase of grace but eternal life . You keep insisting that one through works does not add to his salvation because that's a done deal. Is it? I would argue that salvation is not a done deal in Roman Catholic theology because justification is not a one time act; it is a legal fiction as it were. This is precisely the reason why one must merit increase of grace and eternal life , just as Trent states. <br><br>Do you deny that one by grace must merit eternal life? <br><br>Thoughts?<br><br>Ron <br>
Entire Thread
Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Sun Jun 02, 2002 2:21 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Sun Jun 02, 2002 10:12 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Mon Jun 03, 2002 1:01 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
lazarus
Mon Jun 03, 2002 2:14 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Tue Jun 04, 2002 7:35 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Jason1646
Tue Jun 04, 2002 12:52 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
lazarus
Tue Jun 04, 2002 2:19 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Tue Jun 04, 2002 3:57 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Jason1646
Tue Jun 04, 2002 5:03 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Thu Jun 06, 2002 10:04 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Pilgrim
Tue Jun 04, 2002 5:41 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Mon Jun 03, 2002 9:40 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Tue Jun 04, 2002 7:20 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Tue Jun 04, 2002 8:53 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Five_Sola
Mon Jun 03, 2002 12:00 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Tue Jun 04, 2002 7:01 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Five_Sola
Tue Jun 04, 2002 2:43 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Wed Jun 05, 2002 12:14 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Five_Sola
Wed Jun 05, 2002 12:37 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Wes
Wed Jun 05, 2002 5:34 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Mon Jun 03, 2002 4:25 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Jason1646
Mon Jun 03, 2002 7:29 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Tue Jun 04, 2002 6:54 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Jason1646
Tue Jun 04, 2002 12:32 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Tue Jun 04, 2002 11:11 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Wes
Wed Jun 05, 2002 12:10 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Wed Jun 05, 2002 12:27 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Thu Jun 06, 2002 9:52 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Pilgrim
Thu Jun 06, 2002 11:29 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Sat Jun 08, 2002 3:18 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Pilgrim
Sat Jun 08, 2002 12:58 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Sun Jun 09, 2002 5:36 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Pilgrim
Sun Jun 09, 2002 6:01 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Sun Jun 09, 2002 7:01 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Pilgrim
Sun Jun 09, 2002 7:31 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Sun Jun 09, 2002 8:03 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Pilgrim
Sun Jun 09, 2002 10:33 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Sun Jun 09, 2002 11:05 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Sun Jun 09, 2002 8:05 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Thu Jun 06, 2002 11:42 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Tom
Thu Jun 06, 2002 7:46 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Five_Sola
Thu Jun 06, 2002 11:43 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Thu Jun 06, 2002 12:22 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Jason1646
Thu Jun 06, 2002 2:21 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Tom
Thu Jun 06, 2002 7:38 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Fri Jun 07, 2002 12:43 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Wes
Thu Jun 06, 2002 6:18 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Fri Jun 07, 2002 12:29 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
lazarus
Fri Jun 07, 2002 3:17 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Sat Jun 08, 2002 2:20 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
lazarus
Sat Jun 08, 2002 3:14 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Sat Jun 08, 2002 4:18 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Jason1646
Wed Jun 05, 2002 12:59 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Tom
Wed Jun 05, 2002 6:01 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Sat Jun 08, 2002 3:02 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Wed Jun 05, 2002 4:26 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Jason1646
Wed Jun 05, 2002 11:19 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Wed Jun 05, 2002 1:50 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Thu Jun 06, 2002 12:34 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Thu Jun 06, 2002 3:04 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Sat Jun 08, 2002 5:02 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Sat Jun 08, 2002 9:39 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Sun Jun 09, 2002 7:50 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Sat Jun 08, 2002 7:41 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Sun Jun 09, 2002 6:48 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Mon Jun 10, 2002 11:13 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Mon Jun 10, 2002 10:12 PM
Just wondering...
Anonymous
Mon Jun 10, 2002 11:45 PM
Re: Just wondering...
Anonymous
Tue Jun 11, 2002 3:28 AM
Re: Just wondering...
Jason1646
Tue Jun 11, 2002 12:27 PM
OUCH, that must hurt!
lazarus
Tue Jun 11, 2002 3:45 PM
Re: OUCH, that must hurt!
Anonymous
Sun Jun 16, 2002 5:13 AM
Re: OUCH, that must hurt!
Jason1646
Mon Jun 17, 2002 1:12 PM
Kicking up sand?
Anonymous
Sat Jul 13, 2002 2:50 AM
Re: Just wondering...
Anonymous
Wed Jun 12, 2002 10:42 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Tue Jun 11, 2002 11:16 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
lazarus
Tue Jun 11, 2002 3:38 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Tue Jun 11, 2002 5:05 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Jason1646
Tue Jun 11, 2002 7:26 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Sun Jun 16, 2002 5:32 AM
Re: Gross Misunderstanding needs clarification
Pilgrim
Sun Jun 16, 2002 1:24 PM
Re: Gross Misunderstanding needs clarification
Anonymous
Mon Jun 17, 2002 5:04 AM
Re: Gross Misunderstanding needs clarification
Pilgrim
Mon Jun 17, 2002 2:33 PM
Re: Gross Misunderstanding needs clarification
Anonymous
Mon Jun 17, 2002 11:48 PM
Re: Gross Misunderstanding needs clarification
Pilgrim
Tue Jun 18, 2002 12:46 AM
Re: Gross Misunderstanding needs clarification
Tom
Tue Jun 18, 2002 5:32 AM
Re: Gross Misunderstanding needs clarification
Pilgrim
Tue Jun 18, 2002 12:13 PM
Re: Gross Misunderstanding needs clarification
Tom
Wed Jun 19, 2002 4:39 AM
Re: Gross Misunderstanding needs clarification
Wes
Tue Jun 18, 2002 1:54 PM
Re: Gross Misunderstanding needs clarification
lazarus
Tue Jun 18, 2002 2:14 PM
Re: Gross Misunderstanding needs clarification
Anonymous
Tue Jun 18, 2002 1:33 AM
A few short questions for Scott
Paul_S
Tue Jun 18, 2002 4:32 PM
Re: A few short questions for Scott
Anonymous
Sat Jul 13, 2002 2:58 AM
Re: A few short questions for Scott
Paul_S
Sat Jul 13, 2002 3:22 AM
Re: A few short questions for Scott
Anonymous
Sun Jul 14, 2002 4:25 AM
Re: A few short questions for Scott
Pilgrim
Sun Jul 14, 2002 4:48 AM
Re: A few short questions for Scott
Anonymous
Mon Jul 15, 2002 2:00 AM
Re: A few short questions for Scott
Pilgrim
Mon Jul 15, 2002 2:24 AM
Re: A few short questions for Scott
Anonymous
Fri Jul 26, 2002 12:54 AM
Re: A few short questions for Scott
Pilgrim
Fri Jul 26, 2002 1:37 AM
Re: A few short questions for Scott
Anonymous
Sat Jul 27, 2002 6:13 AM
An additional set of questions for Scott
Paul_S
Fri Jul 26, 2002 3:29 AM
Re: An additional set of questions for Scott
Anonymous
Sat Jul 27, 2002 4:56 AM
Disconnect
Paul_S
Sat Jul 27, 2002 5:41 AM
Re: Disconnect
Anonymous
Sat Jul 27, 2002 6:25 AM
Re: Disconnect
Paul_S
Sat Jul 27, 2002 6:49 AM
The Bottom Line
Paul_S
Sat Jul 27, 2002 1:34 PM
Re: The Bottom Line
Anonymous
Sat Jul 27, 2002 3:50 PM
Re: The Bottom Line
Anonymous
Sat Jul 27, 2002 9:53 PM
A lesson in deduction
Paul_S
Fri Jul 26, 2002 5:28 AM
Re: A lesson in deduction
Anonymous
Fri Jul 26, 2002 2:22 PM
Re: A lesson in deduction
Paul_S
Fri Jul 26, 2002 2:29 PM
Re: A lesson in deduction
Anonymous
Sat Jul 27, 2002 1:12 AM
Baltimore Oh!'s
Paul_S
Fri Jul 26, 2002 5:08 PM
Re: Baltimore Oh!'s
Pilgrim
Fri Jul 26, 2002 5:25 PM
Re: Baltimore Oh!'s
Ehud
Fri Jul 26, 2002 8:51 PM
My Habits vs My Intentions
Wes
Fri Jul 26, 2002 6:19 PM
Re: Baltimore Oh!'s
Anonymous
Fri Jul 26, 2002 6:28 PM
Especially In The Morning
Anonymous
Sat Jul 27, 2002 2:37 AM
Re: Especially In The Morning
Anonymous
Sat Jul 27, 2002 10:58 PM
Re: A lesson in deduction
Anonymous
Sat Jul 27, 2002 2:11 AM
Great Lessons from the Baltimore Catechism!
Anonymous
Sat Jul 27, 2002 1:59 AM
Re: Great Lessons from the Baltimore Catechism!
Paul_S
Sat Jul 27, 2002 2:58 AM
Varieties of Semi-Pelagianism
Paul_S
Mon Jul 15, 2002 3:07 AM
Re: Varieties of Semi-Pelagianism
Pilgrim
Mon Jul 15, 2002 1:13 PM
Presumption, pride and boldness
Paul_S
Sun Jul 14, 2002 8:45 AM
Re: Presumption, pride and boldness
Anonymous
Sun Jul 14, 2002 7:28 PM
Missing the point
Paul_S
Sun Jul 14, 2002 10:39 PM
Re: Missing the point
Anonymous
Mon Jul 15, 2002 1:57 AM
Re: A few short questions for Scott
Paul_S
Sat Jul 13, 2002 3:46 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
J_Edwards
Sun Jun 02, 2002 2:18 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
bishop3
Sun Jun 02, 2002 2:39 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Mon Jun 03, 2002 1:04 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
bishop3
Mon Jun 03, 2002 4:52 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Sun Jun 02, 2002 3:44 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Tom
Sun Jun 02, 2002 6:54 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Fri Nov 07, 2003 1:09 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Tom
Fri Nov 07, 2003 6:22 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Sat Nov 08, 2003 1:06 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Henry
Tue Nov 11, 2003 3:10 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Tue Nov 11, 2003 6:52 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Tue Nov 11, 2003 8:13 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Henry
Thu Nov 13, 2003 1:34 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Fri Nov 14, 2003 7:41 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Wes
Mon Jun 03, 2002 12:25 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Mon Jun 03, 2002 1:12 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Five_Sola
Mon Jun 03, 2002 11:54 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Anonymous
Mon Jun 03, 2002 4:17 PM
Misrepresentaions of RC Justification
J_Edwards
Tue Jun 04, 2002 4:12 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Dvan34
Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:10 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Dvan34
Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:21 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Cranmer
Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:29 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Dvan34
Thu May 23, 2013 9:05 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Pilgrim
Thu May 23, 2013 9:24 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Dvan34
Thu May 23, 2013 11:09 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Tom
Fri May 24, 2013 3:20 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Dvan34
Fri May 24, 2013 4:17 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Pilgrim
Fri May 24, 2013 10:00 AM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
Milan
Thu Jun 15, 2017 1:34 PM
Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
042Dave
Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:40 AM
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