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Lazarus: So, the dead believer in purgatory is in some way being subjected to God's judgements and wrath? Jason: Yes that is the case. Roman Catholics today will often emphasize the purgation of purgatory and the cleansing of purgatory, which is true in itself, while not hanging out the dirty laundry as to why and how that purging is accomplished. The purging is punishment, and it is necessary for making a complete satisfaction for sin. For this reason there certainly exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth a perennial link of charity and an abundant exchange of all the goods by which, with the expiation of all the sins of the entire Mystical Body, divine justice is placated. God's mercy is thus led to forgiveness, so that sincerely repentant sinners may participate as soon as possible in the full enjoyment of the benefits of the family of God. (Papal Encyclical, "Indulgentiarum Doctrina", Chapter 2, Article 5, Promulgated by Pope Paul VI, 1967) It is a divinely revealed truth that sins bring punishments inflicted by God's sanctity and justice. These must be expiated either on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and calamities of this life and above all through death,[3] or else in the life beyond through fire and torments or "purifying" punishments (Papal Encyclical, "Indulgentiarum Doctrina", Chapter 1, Article 2, Promulgated by Pope Paul VI, 1967) It has likewise defined, that, if those truly penitent have departed in the love of God, before they have made satisfaction by worthy fruits of penance for sins of commission and omission, the souls of these are cleansed after death by purgatorial punishments; and so that they may be released from punishments of this kind, the suffrages of the living faithful are of advantage to them, namely, the sacrifices of Masses, prayers, and almsgiving, and other works of piety, which are customarily performed by the faithful for other faithful according to the institutions of the Church (Council of Florence (1439), De novissimis) That punishment or the vestiges of sin may remain to be expiated or cleansed and that they in fact frequently do even after the remission of guilt is clearly demonstrated by the doctrine on purgatory. In purgatory, in fact, the souls of those "who died in the charity of God and truly repentant, but before satisfying with worthy fruits of penance for sins committed and for omissions" are cleansed after death with purgatorial punishments. (Papal Encyclical, "Indulgentiarum Doctrina", Chapter 1, Article 3, Promulgated by Pope Paul VI, 1967) So yes, the justified are still subject to the necessary wrath of God by which they make satisfactions which placate divine justice (unless they are a martyr, or somehow make enough satisfactions prior to death). This is because Roman Catholicism makes a distinction between the guilt of eternal death, which is remitted in baptism (or penance if one falls after baptism), but not the punishment for venial sins committed after baptism. They believe that one still needs to be punished even if the guilt of eternal death is taken away. They would, of course, agree there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus because they would claim condemnation pertains to eternal death (a death sentence). (But then again, I am just sowing Protestant propaganda and don't understand Roman Catholicism, so you'll have to confirm with a Roman Catholic.) ![[Linked Image]](http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/grin.gif) Regards, Jason
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Entire Thread
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Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Sun Jun 02, 2002 2:21 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Sun Jun 02, 2002 10:12 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Mon Jun 03, 2002 1:01 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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lazarus
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Mon Jun 03, 2002 2:14 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Tue Jun 04, 2002 7:35 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Jason1646
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Tue Jun 04, 2002 12:52 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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lazarus
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Tue Jun 04, 2002 2:19 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Tue Jun 04, 2002 3:57 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Jason1646
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Tue Jun 04, 2002 5:03 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Thu Jun 06, 2002 10:04 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Pilgrim
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Tue Jun 04, 2002 5:41 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Mon Jun 03, 2002 9:40 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Tue Jun 04, 2002 7:20 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Tue Jun 04, 2002 8:53 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Five_Sola
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Mon Jun 03, 2002 12:00 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Tue Jun 04, 2002 7:01 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Five_Sola
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Tue Jun 04, 2002 2:43 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Wed Jun 05, 2002 12:14 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Five_Sola
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Wed Jun 05, 2002 12:37 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Wes
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Wed Jun 05, 2002 5:34 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Mon Jun 03, 2002 4:25 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Jason1646
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Mon Jun 03, 2002 7:29 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Tue Jun 04, 2002 6:54 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Jason1646
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Tue Jun 04, 2002 12:32 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Tue Jun 04, 2002 11:11 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Wes
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Wed Jun 05, 2002 12:10 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Wed Jun 05, 2002 12:27 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Thu Jun 06, 2002 9:52 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Pilgrim
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Thu Jun 06, 2002 11:29 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Sat Jun 08, 2002 3:18 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Pilgrim
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Sat Jun 08, 2002 12:58 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Sun Jun 09, 2002 5:36 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Pilgrim
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Sun Jun 09, 2002 6:01 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Sun Jun 09, 2002 7:01 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Pilgrim
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Sun Jun 09, 2002 7:31 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Sun Jun 09, 2002 8:03 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Pilgrim
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Sun Jun 09, 2002 10:33 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Sun Jun 09, 2002 11:05 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Sun Jun 09, 2002 8:05 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Thu Jun 06, 2002 11:42 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Tom
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Thu Jun 06, 2002 7:46 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Five_Sola
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Thu Jun 06, 2002 11:43 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Thu Jun 06, 2002 12:22 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Jason1646
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Thu Jun 06, 2002 2:21 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Tom
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Thu Jun 06, 2002 7:38 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Fri Jun 07, 2002 12:43 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Wes
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Thu Jun 06, 2002 6:18 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Fri Jun 07, 2002 12:29 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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lazarus
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Fri Jun 07, 2002 3:17 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Sat Jun 08, 2002 2:20 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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lazarus
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Sat Jun 08, 2002 3:14 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Sat Jun 08, 2002 4:18 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Jason1646
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Wed Jun 05, 2002 12:59 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Tom
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Wed Jun 05, 2002 6:01 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Sat Jun 08, 2002 3:02 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Wed Jun 05, 2002 4:26 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Jason1646
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Wed Jun 05, 2002 11:19 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Wed Jun 05, 2002 1:50 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Thu Jun 06, 2002 12:34 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Thu Jun 06, 2002 3:04 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Sat Jun 08, 2002 5:02 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Sat Jun 08, 2002 9:39 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Sun Jun 09, 2002 7:50 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Sat Jun 08, 2002 7:41 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Sun Jun 09, 2002 6:48 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Mon Jun 10, 2002 11:13 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Mon Jun 10, 2002 10:12 PM
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Just wondering...
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Anonymous
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Mon Jun 10, 2002 11:45 PM
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Re: Just wondering...
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Anonymous
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Tue Jun 11, 2002 3:28 AM
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Re: Just wondering...
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Jason1646
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Tue Jun 11, 2002 12:27 PM
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OUCH, that must hurt!
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lazarus
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Tue Jun 11, 2002 3:45 PM
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Re: OUCH, that must hurt!
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Anonymous
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Sun Jun 16, 2002 5:13 AM
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Re: OUCH, that must hurt!
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Jason1646
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Mon Jun 17, 2002 1:12 PM
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Kicking up sand?
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Anonymous
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Sat Jul 13, 2002 2:50 AM
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Re: Just wondering...
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Anonymous
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Wed Jun 12, 2002 10:42 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Tue Jun 11, 2002 11:16 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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lazarus
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Tue Jun 11, 2002 3:38 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Tue Jun 11, 2002 5:05 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Jason1646
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Tue Jun 11, 2002 7:26 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Sun Jun 16, 2002 5:32 AM
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Re: Gross Misunderstanding needs clarification
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Pilgrim
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Sun Jun 16, 2002 1:24 PM
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Re: Gross Misunderstanding needs clarification
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Anonymous
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Mon Jun 17, 2002 5:04 AM
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Re: Gross Misunderstanding needs clarification
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Pilgrim
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Mon Jun 17, 2002 2:33 PM
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Re: Gross Misunderstanding needs clarification
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Anonymous
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Mon Jun 17, 2002 11:48 PM
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Re: Gross Misunderstanding needs clarification
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Pilgrim
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Tue Jun 18, 2002 12:46 AM
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Re: Gross Misunderstanding needs clarification
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Tom
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Tue Jun 18, 2002 5:32 AM
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Re: Gross Misunderstanding needs clarification
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Pilgrim
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Tue Jun 18, 2002 12:13 PM
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Re: Gross Misunderstanding needs clarification
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Tom
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Wed Jun 19, 2002 4:39 AM
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Re: Gross Misunderstanding needs clarification
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Wes
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Tue Jun 18, 2002 1:54 PM
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Re: Gross Misunderstanding needs clarification
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lazarus
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Tue Jun 18, 2002 2:14 PM
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Re: Gross Misunderstanding needs clarification
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Anonymous
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Tue Jun 18, 2002 1:33 AM
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A few short questions for Scott
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Paul_S
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Tue Jun 18, 2002 4:32 PM
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Re: A few short questions for Scott
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Anonymous
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Sat Jul 13, 2002 2:58 AM
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Re: A few short questions for Scott
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Paul_S
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Sat Jul 13, 2002 3:22 AM
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Re: A few short questions for Scott
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Anonymous
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Sun Jul 14, 2002 4:25 AM
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Re: A few short questions for Scott
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Pilgrim
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Sun Jul 14, 2002 4:48 AM
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Re: A few short questions for Scott
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Anonymous
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Mon Jul 15, 2002 2:00 AM
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Re: A few short questions for Scott
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Pilgrim
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Mon Jul 15, 2002 2:24 AM
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Re: A few short questions for Scott
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Anonymous
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Fri Jul 26, 2002 12:54 AM
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Re: A few short questions for Scott
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Pilgrim
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Fri Jul 26, 2002 1:37 AM
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Re: A few short questions for Scott
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Anonymous
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Sat Jul 27, 2002 6:13 AM
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An additional set of questions for Scott
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Paul_S
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Fri Jul 26, 2002 3:29 AM
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Re: An additional set of questions for Scott
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Anonymous
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Sat Jul 27, 2002 4:56 AM
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Disconnect
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Paul_S
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Sat Jul 27, 2002 5:41 AM
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Re: Disconnect
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Anonymous
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Sat Jul 27, 2002 6:25 AM
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Re: Disconnect
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Paul_S
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Sat Jul 27, 2002 6:49 AM
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The Bottom Line
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Paul_S
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Sat Jul 27, 2002 1:34 PM
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Re: The Bottom Line
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Anonymous
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Sat Jul 27, 2002 3:50 PM
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Re: The Bottom Line
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Anonymous
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Sat Jul 27, 2002 9:53 PM
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A lesson in deduction
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Paul_S
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Fri Jul 26, 2002 5:28 AM
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Re: A lesson in deduction
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Anonymous
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Fri Jul 26, 2002 2:22 PM
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Re: A lesson in deduction
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Paul_S
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Fri Jul 26, 2002 2:29 PM
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Re: A lesson in deduction
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Anonymous
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Sat Jul 27, 2002 1:12 AM
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Baltimore Oh!'s
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Paul_S
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Fri Jul 26, 2002 5:08 PM
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Re: Baltimore Oh!'s
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Pilgrim
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Fri Jul 26, 2002 5:25 PM
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Re: Baltimore Oh!'s
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Ehud
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Fri Jul 26, 2002 8:51 PM
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My Habits vs My Intentions
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Wes
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Fri Jul 26, 2002 6:19 PM
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Re: Baltimore Oh!'s
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Anonymous
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Fri Jul 26, 2002 6:28 PM
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Especially In The Morning
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Anonymous
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Sat Jul 27, 2002 2:37 AM
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Re: Especially In The Morning
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Anonymous
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Sat Jul 27, 2002 10:58 PM
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Re: A lesson in deduction
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Anonymous
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Sat Jul 27, 2002 2:11 AM
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Great Lessons from the Baltimore Catechism!
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Anonymous
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Sat Jul 27, 2002 1:59 AM
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Re: Great Lessons from the Baltimore Catechism!
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Paul_S
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Sat Jul 27, 2002 2:58 AM
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Varieties of Semi-Pelagianism
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Paul_S
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Mon Jul 15, 2002 3:07 AM
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Re: Varieties of Semi-Pelagianism
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Pilgrim
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Mon Jul 15, 2002 1:13 PM
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Presumption, pride and boldness
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Paul_S
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Sun Jul 14, 2002 8:45 AM
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Re: Presumption, pride and boldness
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Anonymous
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Sun Jul 14, 2002 7:28 PM
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Missing the point
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Paul_S
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Sun Jul 14, 2002 10:39 PM
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Re: Missing the point
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Anonymous
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Mon Jul 15, 2002 1:57 AM
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Re: A few short questions for Scott
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Paul_S
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Sat Jul 13, 2002 3:46 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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J_Edwards
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Sun Jun 02, 2002 2:18 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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bishop3
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Sun Jun 02, 2002 2:39 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Mon Jun 03, 2002 1:04 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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bishop3
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Mon Jun 03, 2002 4:52 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Sun Jun 02, 2002 3:44 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Tom
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Sun Jun 02, 2002 6:54 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Fri Nov 07, 2003 1:09 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Tom
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Fri Nov 07, 2003 6:22 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Sat Nov 08, 2003 1:06 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Henry
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Tue Nov 11, 2003 3:10 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Tue Nov 11, 2003 6:52 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Tue Nov 11, 2003 8:13 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Henry
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Thu Nov 13, 2003 1:34 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Fri Nov 14, 2003 7:41 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Wes
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Mon Jun 03, 2002 12:25 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Mon Jun 03, 2002 1:12 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Five_Sola
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Mon Jun 03, 2002 11:54 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Mon Jun 03, 2002 4:17 PM
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Misrepresentaions of RC Justification
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J_Edwards
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Tue Jun 04, 2002 4:12 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Dvan34
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Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:10 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Dvan34
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Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:21 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Cranmer
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Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:29 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Dvan34
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Thu May 23, 2013 9:05 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Pilgrim
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Thu May 23, 2013 9:24 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Dvan34
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Thu May 23, 2013 11:09 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Tom
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Fri May 24, 2013 3:20 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Dvan34
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Fri May 24, 2013 4:17 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Pilgrim
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Fri May 24, 2013 10:00 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Milan
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Thu Jun 15, 2017 1:34 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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042Dave
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Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:40 AM
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