Five_Sola: interesting. If I am understanding you right you are espousing the protestant view of works. I've never heard a catholic phrase it in this way. <br><br>[color:purple]Scott:We phrased it that way long before there was anything called "Protestantism."</font color=purple><br><br>Five_Sola: So in your thinking works are absolutely unessential to attain or maintain salvation (justification or sanctification). Works are merely the fruit we produce as we are brought closer and closer to the righteousness of Christ (never perfectly attained until glorification). <br><br>[color:purple]Scott: Well, it depends on how you're using your terminology here. Yes, works are absolutely unessential to maintaining salvation. Salvation is not something we possess here and now, it's "the prize at the end of the race." Those who persevere will attain the prize. Now the discussion would be "what is perseverence?" Does that not imply "doing something?" Initial Grace is a free gift to us, we do nothing to "earn" or "attain" that - but we can increase in holiness through good works done in the state of grace. Such works are absolutely necessary too, for without such - we'd have that "dead faith" that James refers to. <br></font color=purple><br><br>Five_Sola: Then what is the need for the sacraments of baptism, penance, etc if they do not continue or maintain salvation?<br><br>[color:purple]Scott: Again, salvation is not something that is "maintained" it is something given at the end of the race. All who "finish" will get that prize, but to one who "wins" their reward will be greater. Baptism is essential because Our Lord commands it. No one who truly believes Our Lord would not receive baptism, or "confirm" those baptismal vows through the Sacrament of Confirmation. Penance is necessary to show our sincerity when we ask for forgiveness. Penance is not always part of the Sacrament of Reconcilliation either, we can do penance at anytime - and that's part of the "works" that James refers to that show a "saving faith."<br></font color=purple><br><br>Five_Sola: Purgatory for that matter is unnecessary also since the works we do are in the reward category and thus no need to purge the venial sins from our souls/body. <br><br>[color:purple]Scott: When we're in Purgatory, it's too late for works. We are there because of a lacking somewhere. Now, those still living can dedicate their good works to the "poor souls in Purgatory" if they choose. If they do so, they receive none of the merit, for they have "given" it to others who can no longer merit for themselves. There's no precise math for Purgatory, we have no idea how long it will last - we only know that nothing impure can enter heaven - and if we have one iota of "stain" against us - that must be cleansed. Also, our "works" are tested by fire (quite Scriptural) and those who are "tested" and have "works made of wood and straw" those people will "suffer loss," right? This is talking about something after this life, so unless you believe there will be suffering in heaven, then there's "another place" that's not quite hell, but where those who are saved must endure suffering - and the Bible says we ALL will be tested in this manner.<br></font color=purple><br><br>Five_Sola: I am asking these questions because you don't sound like any Romanist I've met, and I've met very educated ones. The lucky ones who became christians and left the Roman "church".<br> <br>[color:purple]Scott: Hmmm, that sounds like a thinly veiled ad hominem. If I don't leave the Catholic Church, I am "uneducated." If you didn't mean it that way, then an apology is in order. Actually, one is in order either way you may have meant it.<br><br><font face="Brush Script MT" class="bigger">Scott</font><<<<br></font color=purple>
