Scott writes: Jason - you misrepresent Catholic Teaching, and I was attempting to clarify it...Your out-of-context quotes from Catholic teaching are very misleading... I don't accuse you of deliberately being deceptive, for I believe you're only repeating propaganda that you've been taught regarding the Catholic Faith. Nonetheless, you're not presenting the truth regarding the Catholic Faith if you don't present the whole truth

Jason: Then show me where I misrepresented it, Scott. This typical decry from Catholic apologists as victims of misrepresentation is tired and worn out with me. I have hundreds of hours of personal time put into studying the Catholic position from their own sources and as many pages of notes from my research to back up my points. If I am repeating "propaganda", then it is coming from your own church because that is where I go to study Catholic doctrine. So perhaps you could save time and disk space in refraining from making such ignorant accusations such as I merely repeat propaganda, and deal with the Tridentine decrees on Justification.


Scott writes: There is no "increase in justification" for justification is the "final phase" in the economy of salvation. Those justified ARE saved, period.

Jason: First of all, the notion that one can increase in justification does not militate against someone being saved ("period") in Roman Catholic theology, and I never said it did.

Second, to deny increase in Justification is simply to deny the teaching of Trent in plain terms:

Having, therefore, been thus justified, and made the friends and domestics of God, advancing from virtue to virtue, they are renewed, as the Apostle says, day by day; that is, by mortifying the members of their own flesh, and by presenting them as instruments of justice unto sanctification, they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith co-operating with good works, increase in that justice which they have received through the grace of Christ, and are still further justified (Council of Trent, Decrees on Justification, Chapter 10)

CANON XXIV.-If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema.

In that last clause, "the cause and increase thereof" has "Justification obtained" clearly as its antecedent. So like I said, Justification is more of a disposition (being in a state of grace) that may be increased or decreased as Trent teaches throughout its decrees. At the same time, they say nothing is wanting in the justified by virtue of Christ's righteousness inherent in them. Hey, I never said their theology was consistent.


Scott: Good works done in the state of grace (grace preceeding) are meritorious and lead to an increase in sanctification. Sanctification can lead to more rewards in heaven - but if one is not sanctified, he will not be justified and if not justified, will not be "saved."

Jason: I never said that good works outside of a state of grace merit anything, I specifically said, "these works done in a state of grace are meritorious". That was very clear throughout my post. You have attempted to correct non-errors in my post.


Scott: You cannot take snippets from our Faith and then present your argumentation. Catholicism includes what I have said, thus an out-of-context quote that ignores a more complete treatment of the subject doesn't tell the whole story here.

Jason: You have not shown how my quote is out of context, you have merely made assertions as to what your definition of Justification entails, without any reference to what I might have taken out of context or how it is that your position is the Tridentine one.


Scott: Might I suggest, if you (or anyone else) has a challenge regarding Catholicism - let a Catholic represent his/her Faith.

Jason: Might I suggest that if someone has a question regarding Catholicism that they reference the Vatican sources themselves and not Catholic apologists, who have no authority to speak for the church and speak smooth words pleasant to Protestant ears.


Scott writes:
Catholicism is not a "works = salvation" system at all.
for without GRACE - works are nothing.
without WORKS there is no sanctification.
without SANCTIFICATION there is no justification.
without JUSTIFICATION there is no SALVATION.

It all begins with Grace.

Jason: That's not good enough Scott, which is why I pinpointed the nut of the problem in my first post. I did not say anything that contradicts what you wrote above. What I emphasized is that whether works are done in a state of grace or not, if it is those grace-induced works which become the basis upon which we are accepted by God (that is, if they are the formal cause of Justification) then they are insufficient to justify. It is the justice of Christ inherent in a person that forms the basis upon which the person is formally just in Roman Catholicism, you cannot deny that this is the Tridentine teaching.


Scott writes: James and Paul are quite consistent when read in the proper perspective and context.

Jason: Amen. And in vain will we look for their teaching that baptism justifies initially and then works done in a state of grace preserve and increase justification unless one falls into mortal sin, upon which the person must receive absolution by a human priest in the Sacrament of Penance.


Regards,

Jason.