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#507
Mon Jun 03, 2002 3:29 PM
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RefBap,
Yes, it's easy for Scott to sound protestant when he (knowingly) uses terms that resonate with the Protestant but mean different things for Roman Catholics.
Scott writes: Catholics DO believe that "saving faith" is comprised of both "faith" and "works" but it's not our works that save. Our works, done in the state of grace, lead to sanctification. Such "works" do absolutely no good to one not already on the path to salvation. I hope this helps clarify.
Jason: I give Scott full credit for coming as close as he can to the biblical doctrine without disowning his own denomination. But what you need to consider, RefBap, is that Roman Catholic Justification is more of a disposition than a position. In addition to that, it is important to unpack Scott's sentence to expose the Roman doctrine for what it is.
First of all, Scott guards himself from the idea that works outside of a state of grace lead to salvation and positively writes that they lead to sanctification, which is flirting with deception (his sanctification = "increase of Justification" in Roman Catholic theology), but we'll give him the benefit of the doubt. What he does not say in the clearer, Tridentine manner of explaining justification is that these works done in a state of grace are meritorious and are what merit a person eternal life:
For, whereas Jesus Christ Himself continually infuses his virtue into the said justified,-as the head into the members, and the vine into the branches,-and this virtue always precedes and accompanies and follows their good works, which without it could not in any wise be pleasing and meritorious before God,-we must believe that nothing further is wanting to the justified, to prevent their being accounted to have, by those very works which have been done in God, fully satisfied the divine law according to the state of this life, and to have truly merited eternal life. (Council of Trent, Decree on Justification, Chapter 16)
That is, through Baptism the guilt of eternal death is washed away, and the righteousness of Christ is infused into the recipient such that the righteousness of Christ infused into him results in good works (in accordance with a semi-pelgian view of co-operation) and these good works are what merit eternal life. It is not the perfect righteousness of Christ accounted to the individual that becomes the basis for acceptance, but the satisfaction of the divine law that exists in the individual.
That is the fatal flaw of Roman Catholic justification. On the one hand they say that the formal cause of Justification comes by the actual presence of Christ's righteousness, and yet they claim that an imperfect and incomplete mixture of righteousness and sin is sufficient to merit eternal life.
In addition, keep in mind that when Catholics say justification is by faith, this does not even necessarily mean the faith of the one justified. It is the "Church's faith" that justifies the infant as the Church believes that God will perform the work that He supposedly promises in baptism. This is why it is necessary for the intentions of the priest to be genuine in order for a legitimate baptism to take place and therefore the infusion of justification to take place.
1253 Baptism is the sacrament of faith. But faith needs the community of believers. It is only within the faith of the Church that each of the faithful can believe. The faith required for Baptism is not a perfect and mature faith, but a beginning that is called to develop. The catechumen or the godparent is asked: "What do you ask of God's Church?" The response is: "Faith!" (Catechism of the Catholic Church, #1253)
1124 The Church's faith precedes the faith of the believer who is invited to adhere to it. When the Church celebrates the sacraments, she confesses the faith received from the apostles - whence the ancient saying: lex orandi, lex credendi (or: legem credendi lex statuat supplicandi, according to Prosper of Aquitaine [5th cent.]). The law of prayer is the law of faith: the Church believes as she prays. Liturgy is a constitutive element of the holy and living Tradition. (Catechism of the Catholic Church, #1124)
1127 Celebrated worthily in faith, the sacraments confer the grace that they signify. They are efficacious because in them Christ himself is at work: it is he who baptizes, he who acts in his sacraments in order to communicate the grace that each sacrament signifies. The Father always hears the prayer of his Son's Church which, in the epiclesis of each sacrament, expresses her faith in the power of the Spirit. As fire transforms into itself everything it touches, so the Holy Spirit transforms into the divine life whatever is subjected to his power. (Catechism of the Catholic Church, #1127)
CANON XI.-If any one saith, that, in ministers, when they effect, and confer the sacraments, there is not required the intention at least of doing what the Church does; let him be anathema. (Council of Trent, 7th Session, Canons on the Sacraments in General, Canon 11)
So to answer your initial question, RefBap, this following canon is precisely the reason why the letter of Roman Catholic Justification kills:
CANON XI.-If any one saith, that men are justified, either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ, or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost, and is inherent in them; or even that the grace, whereby we are justified, is only the favour of God; let him be anathema.
When they say, "to the exclusion of the grace and charity..." they are not simply giving to us a description of a genuine faith that receives justification, but they mean that the good works themselves are what formally cause the justification to take place. If Justification is dependent upon fully satisfying the divine law, as Trent declares and Catholicism teaches, then no person whether they are in a supposed state of grace or not can get past the fact that they fall short of the glory of God.
Hope that helps,
Jason.
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Entire Thread
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Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Sun Jun 02, 2002 2:21 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Sun Jun 02, 2002 10:12 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Mon Jun 03, 2002 1:01 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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lazarus
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Mon Jun 03, 2002 2:14 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Tue Jun 04, 2002 7:35 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Jason1646
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Tue Jun 04, 2002 12:52 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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lazarus
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Tue Jun 04, 2002 2:19 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Tue Jun 04, 2002 3:57 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Jason1646
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Tue Jun 04, 2002 5:03 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Thu Jun 06, 2002 10:04 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Pilgrim
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Tue Jun 04, 2002 5:41 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Mon Jun 03, 2002 9:40 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Tue Jun 04, 2002 7:20 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Tue Jun 04, 2002 8:53 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Five_Sola
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Mon Jun 03, 2002 12:00 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Tue Jun 04, 2002 7:01 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Five_Sola
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Tue Jun 04, 2002 2:43 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Wed Jun 05, 2002 12:14 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Five_Sola
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Wed Jun 05, 2002 12:37 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Wes
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Wed Jun 05, 2002 5:34 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Mon Jun 03, 2002 4:25 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Jason1646
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Mon Jun 03, 2002 7:29 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Tue Jun 04, 2002 6:54 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Jason1646
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Tue Jun 04, 2002 12:32 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Tue Jun 04, 2002 11:11 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Wes
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Wed Jun 05, 2002 12:10 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Wed Jun 05, 2002 12:27 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Thu Jun 06, 2002 9:52 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Pilgrim
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Thu Jun 06, 2002 11:29 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Sat Jun 08, 2002 3:18 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Pilgrim
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Sat Jun 08, 2002 12:58 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Sun Jun 09, 2002 5:36 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Pilgrim
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Sun Jun 09, 2002 6:01 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Sun Jun 09, 2002 7:01 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Pilgrim
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Sun Jun 09, 2002 7:31 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Sun Jun 09, 2002 8:03 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Pilgrim
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Sun Jun 09, 2002 10:33 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Sun Jun 09, 2002 11:05 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Sun Jun 09, 2002 8:05 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Thu Jun 06, 2002 11:42 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Tom
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Thu Jun 06, 2002 7:46 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Five_Sola
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Thu Jun 06, 2002 11:43 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Thu Jun 06, 2002 12:22 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Jason1646
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Thu Jun 06, 2002 2:21 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Tom
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Thu Jun 06, 2002 7:38 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Fri Jun 07, 2002 12:43 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Wes
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Thu Jun 06, 2002 6:18 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Fri Jun 07, 2002 12:29 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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lazarus
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Fri Jun 07, 2002 3:17 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Sat Jun 08, 2002 2:20 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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lazarus
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Sat Jun 08, 2002 3:14 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Sat Jun 08, 2002 4:18 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Jason1646
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Wed Jun 05, 2002 12:59 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Tom
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Wed Jun 05, 2002 6:01 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Sat Jun 08, 2002 3:02 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Wed Jun 05, 2002 4:26 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Jason1646
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Wed Jun 05, 2002 11:19 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Wed Jun 05, 2002 1:50 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Thu Jun 06, 2002 12:34 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Thu Jun 06, 2002 3:04 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Sat Jun 08, 2002 5:02 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Sat Jun 08, 2002 9:39 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Sun Jun 09, 2002 7:50 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Sat Jun 08, 2002 7:41 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Sun Jun 09, 2002 6:48 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Mon Jun 10, 2002 11:13 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Mon Jun 10, 2002 10:12 PM
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Just wondering...
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Anonymous
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Mon Jun 10, 2002 11:45 PM
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Re: Just wondering...
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Anonymous
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Tue Jun 11, 2002 3:28 AM
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Re: Just wondering...
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Jason1646
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Tue Jun 11, 2002 12:27 PM
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OUCH, that must hurt!
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lazarus
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Tue Jun 11, 2002 3:45 PM
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Re: OUCH, that must hurt!
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Anonymous
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Sun Jun 16, 2002 5:13 AM
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Re: OUCH, that must hurt!
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Jason1646
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Mon Jun 17, 2002 1:12 PM
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Kicking up sand?
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Anonymous
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Sat Jul 13, 2002 2:50 AM
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Re: Just wondering...
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Anonymous
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Wed Jun 12, 2002 10:42 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Tue Jun 11, 2002 11:16 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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lazarus
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Tue Jun 11, 2002 3:38 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Tue Jun 11, 2002 5:05 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Jason1646
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Tue Jun 11, 2002 7:26 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Sun Jun 16, 2002 5:32 AM
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Re: Gross Misunderstanding needs clarification
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Pilgrim
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Sun Jun 16, 2002 1:24 PM
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Re: Gross Misunderstanding needs clarification
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Anonymous
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Mon Jun 17, 2002 5:04 AM
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Re: Gross Misunderstanding needs clarification
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Pilgrim
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Mon Jun 17, 2002 2:33 PM
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Re: Gross Misunderstanding needs clarification
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Anonymous
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Mon Jun 17, 2002 11:48 PM
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Re: Gross Misunderstanding needs clarification
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Pilgrim
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Tue Jun 18, 2002 12:46 AM
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Re: Gross Misunderstanding needs clarification
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Tom
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Tue Jun 18, 2002 5:32 AM
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Re: Gross Misunderstanding needs clarification
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Pilgrim
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Tue Jun 18, 2002 12:13 PM
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Re: Gross Misunderstanding needs clarification
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Tom
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Wed Jun 19, 2002 4:39 AM
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Re: Gross Misunderstanding needs clarification
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Wes
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Tue Jun 18, 2002 1:54 PM
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Re: Gross Misunderstanding needs clarification
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lazarus
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Tue Jun 18, 2002 2:14 PM
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Re: Gross Misunderstanding needs clarification
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Anonymous
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Tue Jun 18, 2002 1:33 AM
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A few short questions for Scott
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Paul_S
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Tue Jun 18, 2002 4:32 PM
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Re: A few short questions for Scott
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Anonymous
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Sat Jul 13, 2002 2:58 AM
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Re: A few short questions for Scott
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Paul_S
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Sat Jul 13, 2002 3:22 AM
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Re: A few short questions for Scott
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Anonymous
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Sun Jul 14, 2002 4:25 AM
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Re: A few short questions for Scott
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Pilgrim
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Sun Jul 14, 2002 4:48 AM
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Re: A few short questions for Scott
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Anonymous
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Mon Jul 15, 2002 2:00 AM
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Re: A few short questions for Scott
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Pilgrim
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Mon Jul 15, 2002 2:24 AM
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Re: A few short questions for Scott
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Anonymous
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Fri Jul 26, 2002 12:54 AM
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Re: A few short questions for Scott
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Pilgrim
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Fri Jul 26, 2002 1:37 AM
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Re: A few short questions for Scott
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Anonymous
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Sat Jul 27, 2002 6:13 AM
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An additional set of questions for Scott
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Paul_S
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Fri Jul 26, 2002 3:29 AM
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Re: An additional set of questions for Scott
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Anonymous
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Sat Jul 27, 2002 4:56 AM
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Disconnect
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Paul_S
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Sat Jul 27, 2002 5:41 AM
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Re: Disconnect
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Anonymous
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Sat Jul 27, 2002 6:25 AM
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Re: Disconnect
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Paul_S
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Sat Jul 27, 2002 6:49 AM
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The Bottom Line
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Paul_S
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Sat Jul 27, 2002 1:34 PM
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Re: The Bottom Line
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Anonymous
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Sat Jul 27, 2002 3:50 PM
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Re: The Bottom Line
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Anonymous
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Sat Jul 27, 2002 9:53 PM
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A lesson in deduction
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Paul_S
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Fri Jul 26, 2002 5:28 AM
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Re: A lesson in deduction
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Anonymous
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Fri Jul 26, 2002 2:22 PM
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Re: A lesson in deduction
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Paul_S
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Fri Jul 26, 2002 2:29 PM
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Re: A lesson in deduction
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Anonymous
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Sat Jul 27, 2002 1:12 AM
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Baltimore Oh!'s
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Paul_S
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Fri Jul 26, 2002 5:08 PM
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Re: Baltimore Oh!'s
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Pilgrim
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Fri Jul 26, 2002 5:25 PM
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Re: Baltimore Oh!'s
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Ehud
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Fri Jul 26, 2002 8:51 PM
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My Habits vs My Intentions
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Wes
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Fri Jul 26, 2002 6:19 PM
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Re: Baltimore Oh!'s
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Anonymous
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Fri Jul 26, 2002 6:28 PM
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Especially In The Morning
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Anonymous
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Sat Jul 27, 2002 2:37 AM
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Re: Especially In The Morning
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Anonymous
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Sat Jul 27, 2002 10:58 PM
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Re: A lesson in deduction
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Anonymous
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Sat Jul 27, 2002 2:11 AM
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Great Lessons from the Baltimore Catechism!
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Anonymous
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Sat Jul 27, 2002 1:59 AM
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Re: Great Lessons from the Baltimore Catechism!
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Paul_S
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Sat Jul 27, 2002 2:58 AM
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Varieties of Semi-Pelagianism
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Paul_S
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Mon Jul 15, 2002 3:07 AM
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Re: Varieties of Semi-Pelagianism
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Pilgrim
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Mon Jul 15, 2002 1:13 PM
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Presumption, pride and boldness
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Paul_S
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Sun Jul 14, 2002 8:45 AM
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Re: Presumption, pride and boldness
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Anonymous
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Sun Jul 14, 2002 7:28 PM
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Missing the point
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Paul_S
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Sun Jul 14, 2002 10:39 PM
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Re: Missing the point
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Anonymous
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Mon Jul 15, 2002 1:57 AM
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Re: A few short questions for Scott
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Paul_S
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Sat Jul 13, 2002 3:46 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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J_Edwards
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Sun Jun 02, 2002 2:18 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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bishop3
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Sun Jun 02, 2002 2:39 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Mon Jun 03, 2002 1:04 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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bishop3
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Mon Jun 03, 2002 4:52 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Sun Jun 02, 2002 3:44 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Tom
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Sun Jun 02, 2002 6:54 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Fri Nov 07, 2003 1:09 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Tom
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Fri Nov 07, 2003 6:22 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Sat Nov 08, 2003 1:06 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Henry
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Tue Nov 11, 2003 3:10 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Tue Nov 11, 2003 6:52 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Tue Nov 11, 2003 8:13 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Henry
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Thu Nov 13, 2003 1:34 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Fri Nov 14, 2003 7:41 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Wes
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Mon Jun 03, 2002 12:25 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Mon Jun 03, 2002 1:12 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Five_Sola
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Mon Jun 03, 2002 11:54 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Anonymous
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Mon Jun 03, 2002 4:17 PM
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Misrepresentaions of RC Justification
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J_Edwards
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Tue Jun 04, 2002 4:12 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Dvan34
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Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:10 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Dvan34
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Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:21 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Cranmer
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Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:29 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Dvan34
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Thu May 23, 2013 9:05 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Pilgrim
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Thu May 23, 2013 9:24 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Dvan34
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Thu May 23, 2013 11:09 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Tom
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Fri May 24, 2013 3:20 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Dvan34
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Fri May 24, 2013 4:17 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Pilgrim
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Fri May 24, 2013 10:00 AM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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Milan
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Thu Jun 15, 2017 1:34 PM
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Re: Roman Catholicism and salvation
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042Dave
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Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:40 AM
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